This is a complete and accurate transcript of the tape of the oral history interview with Marguerite Elizabeth (Goodner) Owen (CN 534, T5) in the Archives of the Billy Graham Center. No spoken words have been omitted, except for any non-English phrases which could not be understood by the transcribers. Foreign terms which are not commonly understood appear in italics. In very few cases words were too unclear to be distinguished. If the transcriber was not completely sure of having gotten what the speaker said, "[?]" was inserted after the word or phrase in question. If the speech was inaudible or indistinguishable, "[unclear]" was inserted. Grunts and verbal hesitations such as "ah" or "um" were usually omitted. The transcribers have not attempted to phonetically replicate English dialects but have instead entered the standard English word the speaker was expressing.
Chinese place names are spelled in the transcript in the old or new transliteration form according to how the speaker pronounced them. Thus, "Peking" is used instead of "Beijing," if that is how the interviewee pronounced it. Chinese terms and phrases which would be understood were spelled as they were pronounced with some attempt made to identify the accepted transliteration form to which it corresponds.
Readers should remember that this is a transcript of spoken English, which follows a different rhythm and rule than written English.
... Three dots indicate an interruption or break in the train of thought within the sentence on the part of the speaker.
.... Four dots indicate what the transcriber believes to be the end of an incomplete sentence.
( ) Words in parentheses are asides made by the speaker.
[ ] Words in brackets are comments by the transcriber.
This transcript, made by Bob Shuster and Jeff Aernie, was completed in November 2005.
Collection 534, T5. Interview of Marguerite Owen by Bob Shuster, May 26, 1998.
SHUSTER: This is an interview of Mrs. Marguerite Goodner Owen by Robert Shuster for the Archives of the Billy Graham Center. This interview took place on May 26...
OWEN: Uh-huh.
SHUSTER: ...at 9 a.m. in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Mrs. Owen last time we were talking about your time in China in 1938 and we mentioned how you had been for a couple months in Yencheng. And where did you go after that?
OWEN: Well, while I was in Yencheng, that was because I couldn't get back to Chengyangkwan. Floods were all over that part of [unclear]. In fact, I never saw some of those stations I told...talked about before ever again. But...while I was there, there was sudden call came from Kaifung that the Japanese had invaded that city and hundreds of girls...dozens of girls...scores of girls, I guess, had come into the church for sanctity...for santifi...to be kept safe [sanctuary].
SHUSTER: They weren't Christians themselves?
OWEN: No, no. Some of them were, some of them weren't. Just...people fled into the church. And the missionary there that was in charge of teaching and that sort of thing was on furlough. So there was no one there to give them Bible lessons or to teach them. So they said...they said to me, "You can't get back to your own station," which was in Anwhei, "so come on and go to Kaifung."
SHUSTER: That was also in Honan?
OWEN: What?
SHUSTER: That was in Honan?
OWEN: That was in Honan. Yencheng is in Honan and I had to go on the railroad for about four hours and then change.... Then I had probably the most exciting thing that happened to me in my whole life in China. We had to go across twenty miles of flood. And they...nobody went alone; you had to go in groups. And our...they had to get someone who knew the field and knew Chinese and who could manage it. And there was a Free Methodist minister...missionary and his wife. The Ashcrafts. And they were....
SHUSTER: What were their names?
OWEN: Ashcraft.
SHUSTER: And their first names? Do you recall?
OWEN: I don't remember his first name.
SHUSTER: But they were Free Methodist missionaries?
OWEN: They were Free Methodist missionaries. Very fine. And he was in charge of a group. And he was taking in a couple of young missionaries who'd just come to China with no Chinese [language] and two babies. Two little...little children and a baby. And there....
SHUSTER: Were they also CIM [China Inland Mission] or were they...?
OWEN: They were...no, they were CI...no, they were Free Methodist. I was the only CIM missionary attached. But they were also two Chinese girls who were adhered to the CIM. One was in the hospital as a nurse and one was in the school as a.... And they had esc...had run away from the Japanese. And now that things had settled down they wanted to go back. But they had to be escorted in.
SHUSTER: Do you recall their names?
OWEN: No, I don't recall their names at all. I only saw them those three days, four days. But it was the most difficult trip that I think I've tak.... We had...because the whole land was flooded. We just had dry spots in between, maybe a mile, maybe a half a mile, maybe so many yards. You had to hire your...your transportation to the edge of the flood. Then you had to hire boats to get over to the next spot. Unload again and...and if you stay...if it was long enough you stayed there over night. Otherwise you got to another...you got some more transportation. We changed boats four times. And the...the second day out we were going down and I...and then...all...all these...there was this Chinese couple that belonged to the CIM, that were members of our...they weren't members but they worked for our mission. And they were moving back with their first new baby and a whole pile of household things. I can remember this big pile with all their cutlery...not their cutlery, their crockery on the top jiggling around. And this all had to be loaded on and off and on and off. My problem was I was given a small pigskin suitcase with twenty thousand dollars in one dollar bills. The Japanese at that time made a rule....
SHUSTER: Who gave this to you?
OWEN: The...our mission's secretary in [name of Chinese town] where we...where we changed ...the last...last stopping point where we....
SHUSTER: Who was that?
OWEN: Miss Grace Hoover.
SHUSTER: Grace Hoover.
OWEN: She was in charge of representing the mission in [name of Chinese town]. We didn't have a station there but she was in charge of mission. And she had a call from Kaifung from Mr. [A.R.] Kennedy who was a business manager, that the Japanese were using this method to squeeze the people. That...they wouldn't give you change. If you gave a ten dollar bill for something that was a dollar you gave ten dollars. I mean, they wouldn't give you.... So they needed one dollar bills. So he said, "Send twenty thousand dollars in one dollar bills." If you can imagine the size. And they put these in a [unclear] and put old dirty clothes over them. And....
SHUSTER: Now you say the Japanese...if somebody...if...gave them money they would not give them any change.
OWEN: No.
SHUSTER: What were people giving them money for? I mean, what....
OWEN: Well, buying things. They...I mean....
SHUSTER: Why were people buying things from the Japanese?
OWEN: Well, in the stores they would have the control of things. They had taken over a lot of them, I guess. I don't know....
SHUSTER: Oh, I see.
OWEN: I don't really know how it was. But I know that's what they said. And so anyway I sat on this as we traveled....
SHUSTER: Sat on the suitcase with the money?
OWEN: The suitcase. And I held in my...on the boats. I mean...I was...that was my fear all the way: that I'd lose twenty thousand dollars. That, of course, Chinese currency, but it was still a lot of money.
SHUSTER: Now, you mentioned last time that you'd lost most of your clothing and things, correct?
OWEN: Oh yes.
SHUSTER: So you didn't have a lot of baggage...
OWEN: Oh, no...no. I had...
SHUSTER: ...besides what one suitcase or so?
OWEN: ...I had...yes...I had one...well, it was one box, a wooden box, and my bed roll, that's all the things I had.
SHUSTER: And this one couple had a great deal of...
OWEN: Oh yes, they had their household things.
SHUSTER: ...of furniture and boxes and things. Did the rest of the group have much luggage?
OWEN: Well, yes they had a lot of luggage because you see they were going in as new missionaries, this young couple. They...Mr. Ashcraft didn't have any; he was going back home. 'Cause he lived in.... He had come over to get them. And was escorting us back.
SHUSTER: So there was about eight people in the party altogether?
OWEN: Yes. And we...we had...we usually had two boats, but if it was a big enough boat we could all get it in. 'Cause they were just poled. I mean, there was no motor boats. They were all just either poled or rowed, whichever. Mostly poling. And I was sitting with my back to the...where we were going. And I noticed at one point...I knew the water was going quite fast. We were at a place where there was current come through. And I noticed all the Chinese were saying "[Chinese phrase]." "Please, Lord! Please, Lord!" And everybody...and I could see the men just working as hard.... I sat there obliviously, not knowing what it was. Suddenly we just grazed huge stumps that if they had moved just a little bit further we would have banged into them and we'd have all been gone. I didn't know the dangers until they were over but I thanked the Lord after for saving me. [chuckles] But that was prov.... And then another time...I don't remember just which place...we were fired on by guerillas, not knowing who we were and what we were. But no....
SHUSTER: These were Chinese guerillas?
OWEN: Chinese guerillas. And it was...and then...we stayed all night twice. One time we... both times in the homes.... Some Chinese just let us come in. Slept on the bed...the Chinese bed. And my responsibility at each place was to see that the new couple understood what was going on. 'Cause they didn't have any Chinese and they didn't know what these...and I would have to explain to them and also I had to arrange somebody to place...to put them safely and know where they could have a...where they could put their babies and their baby things and all. So I had that responsibility. But toward the last my big responsibility was encouraging the two girls who were getting more and more nervous as we got near to Kaifung.
SHUSTER: The two Chinese girls?
OWEN: Two Chinese girls. Kaifung is a huge walled city. And inside that you could be fairly safe. But you'd have to go through the gates. Fortunately our hospital was outside the gates. It was huge compound, with gates big enough to take these horse...horse carts right in without having to you know get out and get off. But we'd had to unload and load and unload. And we reached the last point after dark and had to...and I had to hang on to this...tell the two girls what to do until...and also hang on to my money, that wasn't mine. [Shuster chuckles] And we got in...we got on two big horse carts. These high ones. And I could...and there...and their tinware was clattering on the top. That's what I remember. And nobody talked. We could see the lights of the city probably mile-and-a-half. I don't know how far away. But it was...we could just barely see them. But they...we knew that the Japanese usually fired first and asked questions afterwards and everybody was tense.
SHUSTER: And the Japanese were in control of the city?
OWEN: Oh yes, completely. And so...that's why I was going there. And as we went along the two girls...one held each hand you know. And meanwhile...I was sitting...I was sitting this time on the...on the money and trying to encourage them in Chinese. And Mr. Ashcraft started taking over the couple after they got to that place 'cause they were...their cart was going somewhere.... No, I guess we were all going to that compound. And as we got near the city we could see the guards walking on top of the gates on top of the walls. And all you could hear was the clump of these great big horses...mules you know. And the rattle....
SHUSTER: The mules of your cart?
OWEN: Yeah, the mules of our cart. And it was really scary. Is that my phone?
SHUSTER: Sounds like it. [tape recorder turned off and back on] Okay, you were saying you were approaching the city.
OWEN: The city and everybody got real quiet just as...and we just.... But as we drew near the gate all of us began to relax. And then suddenly the Chinese guide that was with us, who was a Christian, he went up to the gate and knocked on it and told him to open it and these great big gates and we pulled the whole horse carts all went right into the compound. Everybody...and the gates shut behind us. We knew we were...temporarily safe at any rate. And Arthur Kennedy the one who had ordered the money came out. And I said...I said, "Oh, Arthur, here's your money." He tossed it over. "Put it in the office." I said, "Arthur, that's twenty thousand dollars!" He said, "I know but it's safe now," he said. But it was the most...shall I say it was the most su...tense place of my whole time. I was bombed several times and I was in bombings. And I also had a couple times when I was...knew there was danger near. But that was the closest that I ever felt they were near. But my...I was in...I got there in September...October of 1938 and I was there until about February of '39. And the...the.... It was a wonderful time of ministry because I had...I didn't have to find people to teach. They were there. And they wanted to learn. And I had...I had classes for those who had...didn't...for the unbelievers and then new believers at different times and had different groups all day long. I lived in the hospital compound and I had to drive into the city...ride in on a bicycle to the city everyday, because the church was in the city. And they didn't bother me usually. But that Christmas....
SHUSTER: They being the Japanese guards?
OWEN: The Japanese didn't bother me at all. They just let me go and didn't pay attention. But that Christmas the children of the missionaries who were stationed there came home for the holidays to be with their parents. It was quite common. And on one afternoon I took a whole group of them in from their homes in the outside of the compound into some place in the city (I've forgotten now what we went to) but there was some affair that they all...and I was escorting them. Well, I had my bicycle and they were all in rickshaws and we got to the gates. And the Japanese says, "Get out of the carts." And, of course, they didn't understand. And I said, "You'll all have to get out," because I.... And so I said, "Just be quiet...don't do anything and we'll go through...."
SHUSTER: So the Japanese said, "Get out of the carts"?
OWEN: Out of the rickshaws.
SHUSTER: Out of the rickshaws. To the children?
OWEN: To the children. And I tried to say "They're just children." "No, they have to get out and walk." They were big enough. They were all school children. So they got out. And I pushed my bicycle. I'd been escorting them with my bicycle. And he said, "Take off your hat." See, they made the men all tip their hats to them. I said, "I'm a woman and women don't take off their hats." They looked at me. See, I had a long gown on and big feet. [Shuster chuckles] They gave you this [makes a waving signal] to go.
SHUSTER: So they signaled you to go ahead? Yeah.
OWEN: And I wouldn't have minded taking it off, but it was the kind that was hard...wouldn't be easy to take off. It wasn't like a man's hat that you could tip back off. It was some kind of knit cap. Anyway, that was my only time.... Well, no it wasn't. I later had some other conflicts with Japanese. But that was a particular time.
SHUSTER: Now you mentioned that you'd come to the city, there was all these girls with...who had...were living in the church. Were they still continuing to live there?
OWEN: Yes, they continued to live there until....
SHUSTER: 'Cause they were afraid what would happen to them if they left?
OWEN: Yes, they were afraid of being raped or....
SHUSTER: Like in Nanking or...[reference to the murder and rape of many civilians after the Japanese army occupied Nanking on December 13, 1937]?
OWEN: Yes, yes. In lots of cities that happened.
SHUSTER: How did the Japanese react to all these people...react to all these people taking sanctuary in the church? Did they take no notice of it?
OWEN: Well, they may have took notice but at that particular stage, you see, this was pre-'41. Thirty...the Japanese were not at war with the foreigners. And as a whole, they tried not to rouse the ire of the foreigners. And if the foreigners were standing guard...as there were men, you see, in charge of the church. And they didn't...foreign men and so they didn't bother with them. I'm sure they didn't like it but they didn't.... As far as I know they didn't make any attempts to break in. And the girls...but later on things eased off...I don't know when...it was after I was gone because the lady I was suppose to be taking [over] for, she came back. But that...that Christmastime...I was there through Christmas...that's one of my Christmases there. Then about February [1938] when Miss [M.E.] Standen who was taking...who was the Bible woman from the church, she came back for furlough and she could take over the teaching. And meanwhile another missionary joined her. So they said I got a wire to come back to my own province. They needed me back in Anhwei. So Mrs. Davis, who's one of the...had come there to be for Christmas with her children was going back home with her youngest a baby. She had three in school and this was her youngest. That's Mrs. Ernest Davis. She was the wife of the superintendent of Honan. We had to go through Honan to go...to go to Anhwei...we had to back. So she said she would travel with me and we would travel together. So we started out from Kaifung....
SHUSTER: And where were you heading to?
OWEN: Heading first to [name of Chinese town] where that...where the...I'd taken the money first. Back there. But this time the floods were way down. We could go almost all they way by rickshaw. Until we got to a certain point and then we had just small boats. It wasn't the big horrendous going over. 'Cause this was five months after the...after we'd...six months after we'd gone in and the floods were way down. The rains hadn't come for the spring. So....
SHUSTER: So you're going to [name of Chinese town] and then?
OWEN: And then down to Yencheng and then down to Chengyangkwan and then down the river to Taiho.
SHUSTER: Taiho, where you had been stationed before?
OWEN: Yes, where I had been stationed before.
SHUSTER: That was your ultimate destination?
OWEN: Yes, ultimate destination. I thought it was. I'll come to that in a minute. [laughs] I...we had a...we had very many delays. We went mostly by rickshaw cart. Those are like...just like boxes on wheels.
SHUSTER: Wheelbarrows?
OWEN: No. There...We didn't travel on wheelbarrows. There were wheelbarrows. But we didn't. We had these. They were like a rickshaw but only instead of having a seat on it they had a box on it. So you could put more baggage in it and sit down inside. And we stayed for a night in Junchow [sp?] with some missionaries. And then we got on to Fuchung [sp?] which was a Lutheran station. Lovely Lutheran people. And Chinese New Year came and Chinese New Year.... [phone rings in background] (I think that's the phone over there...that's not my phone.) Chinese New Year, nobody goes anywhere. I mean, it's...the world stops for three days. And sometimes for longer. But certainly...nobody would travel. So we had to stay with the Lutheran missionaries. They were very kind. They were pleased to see us. I mean, missionaries up there are always glad to have some other people. And we had a wonderful time and I kept in touch with them for a long time. And then finally we could go on. And then the next station we went to was Honan and that's where...that was in Honan, but that was [name of Chinese town] and then we went to Yencheng, that's where Mrs. Davis' husband was. And she...I left her with the children. Then I had to go on by myself. So I went by...they gave me a young Chinese Christian to go along...escort me. I was on a bicycle. I don't know whose bicycle. Now I wonder. But anyway...I was riding a bicycle and....
SHUSTER: They gave you somebody to escort you 'cause you were a women...
OWEN: Yes.
SHUSTER: ...or because missionaries just didn't travel by themselves?
OWEN: Well, if I had been a man they'd had somebody. They don't one by one. We were going to what they call a [Chinese phrase], a bandit's nest, the territory we had to go through. I had hoped that when we got to Chengyangkwan, we could go down the river. But they...they...the roads...the water was too low. Boats weren't traveling in that season of the year.
SHUSTER: And that's the Yangtze?
OWEN: The Sha [sp?] river. It's a small tributary that goes clear down to the Yangtze. But it's way...this is way up at the beginning of it. So I traveled on to...we were going...we left Chengyangkwan heading for a certain city which I've forgotten now...it's a very small one but it was a walled city. But we ran into mud. And our bicycles...we both had bicycles...the young man and I. My luggage, the little that I had, was enough for one wheel-barrow and it went...they just told it...we just told it to go on its own. It didn't have to stay with us.
SHUSTER: You told the man with the wheelbarrow to go on?
OWEN: Yes, to go on ahead. Only he was behind but I said go on his own. But it was getting dark already and we could not go on anymore in the dark. And the...my young Christian leader, young Christian friend was just scared to death. He was just shaking. He said, "Now [Chinese phrase], don't say a word. If they hear your voice, they'll know you are a foreigner even though you talk Chinese." I was wearing just sort of knit cap like any man would wear. And I would...also had on a long Chinese gown which either a man or woman could wear.
SHUSTER: Were you trying to disguise yourself or...
OWEN: No, that's the way we wore...
SHUSTER: ...just how you dressed?
OWEN: And we also...we had...I mean, I have big feet so...several times I heard Chinese say, "Is that a man or woman?" You know. You couldn't see my hair and the long dress and the big feet. I couldn't be a woman with that big feet. Anyway....
SHUSTER: Do women still have bound feet at this time?
OWEN: Not now. I think they're all completely....
SHUSTER: No, I mean, at the time we are...
OWEN: Oh, yes...
SHUSTER: ...talking?...
OWEN: ...they were still there. Although they were going out of it even then. I mean, it was going out anyway. But it was...I mean, it was...it was...they were still recog...even though they didn't bind them, they kept them much...they didn't let them spread like I did by going barefoot when I was a girl. Anyway, he said, "There's a church at the very far side of the village." It was just a small country town. "Village," we would call it. He said, "I'll do the talking and just follow me and don't say anything. And they'll think we're just two businessmen." Fortunately, our baggage wasn't with us so it didn't look like we had anything. So we went right through the village just...by this time...just...by little lamps that the places were selling things. And he talked to people and they said, "Where you coming?" and, "Where are you going?" That's just casual, you know, how they talk. And we got to the little gospel hall and he told me...he said, "Now [Chinese word] when you get there walk through the gospel hall. Don't talk to anybody we don't know who's in there." 'Cause a lot of people came and stayed at night in the main gospel hall. "Go through to the kitchen and that...there's the Christian woman who owns...runs the place. And she'll take care of you. You stay with her until I come and get you." So I went in and she welcomed me warmly....
SHUSTER: This was a Chinese lady?
OWEN: Chinese lady. Chinese...Chinese Christian who kept the inn. And she was very dear. And I don't remember her name at all, because I doubt if I even heard it. 'Cause it was just, you know...she was just somebody.... But she took me and gave...gave me something to eat, took something out to eat to him where there was a lot of men...the place was just filled with men. And I don't know what they asked him or what he answered. I wasn't there. And so then I...she...she took me into an inner bedroom that was half the size of this room and it had just one little window high up. But I could...through which I could see the light. When it got light. And I slept on the same bed with her. I didn't, of course...I didn't undress. You didn't take anything off. You just laid down and slept. Well, I slept maybe until past midnight and then there was terribly barking of dogs and shots and everything. And the bandits were loose. And if they had known there was a foreigner there, even though they didn't know.... But they didn't know there was a foreigner there, thanks to my wise guide. And they...they hadn't seen any luggage worth...my luggage didn't look like anything...it was just stuff that anybody would have...it looked like. So...but I...but we got...the woman next to me was so scared she said, "[Chinese words]." "Bandits. Bandits." And I said, "Who are these bandits?" She said, "In the daytime they're farmers and at night they're bandits." They were all so hard up in the war and everything. And I watched....
SHUSTER: You say they would come into the city and rob people?
OWEN: Well, into the towns.
SHUSTER: Into the towns.
OWEN: And into the...into the fa...farm enclosures all around. I don't think they actually came into the village. It didn't get that close. But it was...it might have. I could...I mean...I don't...I don't know how to distance this out. But I could hear shots and I could hear barks. And...the dogs just barking furiously. And I watched that little square of light. And gradually...you know, light came on and it was wonderful to see. But it was...just looked like it was the barest light when I heard a knock on the door, "[Chinese words] we must go." So I got up and we went out. And...most of the people were still sleeping in the church and we just walked through quietly and started off. We didn't talk until we'd gone about three miles maybe. Or maybe not that far. Two or three miles anyway. "Oh," he said, "That's a regular nest of robbers," he said. "Safe to get out of there." Well, I said, "The Lord was good. He took care of us." And so then we got on to the city where he wanted...had wanted to go for the night. And we just had a meal. And then we went on cause we were getting near enough to [Chinese word]. By this time I think we were over the border in Anhwei...I'm not sure, 'cause that sort of thing you don't remember. And I walked in about noon into the compound where I'd live and where I thought was my station and I said, "Oh, I'm so glad not to have to move again." And I saw my co-workers look at each other. I said, "What's up?"
SHUSTER: And who...who were your co-workers at this time?
OWEN: Ruth Novak and Mabel Williamson. And they...Mabel had been there and Ruth Novak had joined her from Fowyang. And they looked at each other. I said, "What's up?" They said, "There's a letter on your desk telling you to go straight on to Wuhu [sp?]." [Owen moans]. I thought. But anyway, so I said, "I won't unpack it all. I just, you know, have a bath and get dressed and go along." So then I was sent down to...I had to go to Fowyang which was my original station and spend a night there with missionaries. And then another day by this time by the river down to Wuhu, [sp?] which is a down...it's a little bit off the river but quite close...further south.
SHUSTER: Wuhu [sp?] is also in Anhwei?
OWEN: Anhwei, yes. The thing was, I was just supposed to stay there for Miss [H.] Todd...after she went on furlough. And then there was someone coming to take her place. I knew there was only.... And not only by that time I had written to a certain young man that I would meet him that summer in Chefoo so I knew....
SHUSTER: To get married?
OWEN: Yes, getting married. So anyway I had two good ones in Wuhu [sp?] and then Mabel Williamson came from Taiho to join me.
SHUSTER: So you were there from what, March and April?
OWEN: Yeah, Maple...May and June more. 'Cause it took us so long to come from...I left in February and then, I think it was March before I got to....maybe March April or May I don't...it was about that long. And, anyway, about those times. And...my letters in those books will tell you. [letters in her scrapbooks in Collection 534] [Owen chuckles] Anyway then....
SHUSTER: And in...and in...was it Wuhu [sp?]...
OWEN: Yes.
SHUSTER: ...that you were country work or teaching or...?
OWEN: Teaching in the city. They had a lot of young women that were coming interested. They were and also visiting in homes and there were...and also visiting in homes. And there was a little church starting. There wasn't a mission compound, I don't think. Must have been a mission home 'cause I lived in home with Miss...and I know of pictures that were taken of me with Chinese women there. So I think I had women's Bible classes and visited in homes and worked with the young people. Anyway it was a good time but it was...when you know you're not going to be long you don't...you don't...you don't feel quite the same. And then Mabel came down and joined me and we went over to Chengyangkwan which is about an hour's ride. And from there we went down to...from...from Chengyangkwan we went down the river, down the Sha [sp?] river which was about big enough, 'til we got to the city where the Presbyterians had a big work. And I should know the name of that city real well, 'cause we...but for the moment, it's gone. It was halfway between Chengyangkwan and where I later came and Wungwu [sp?]. It was at a midpoint. And then from there, because the floods again had messed up the roads, we went in...in [Chinese phrase] chair...chair carried...things that you carry on....
SHUSTER: Like a sedan chair?
OWEN: Sedan chair, that's what I was looking for. I could only think of the Chinese name for them. But anyway she had one and I had one and we had two...each one had three Chinese carriers. You'd put two on the back and one on the front or something like that. They were scared to death. We had to go through the local army, which was still loyal to Chiang Kai-shek. And then there was a group of just bandits that just went...that just went wherever...which way or the other. Then there were...there were the guerillas. Then we went through the Japanese subsidized group. It was...they had gone over to the other side.
SHUSTER: Chinese group that supported the Japanese?
OWEN: Chinese group...that...that...that...with Japanese. Either they might have been.... And then were the Japanese. You had to go through all these different armies. And....
SHUSTER: What kind of passes or passports...?
OWEN: We didn't have anything. We...we just trusted in the Lord to take us through. Because the... On the Chinese side they didn't...I mean, the first two groups they knew, they saw that we were women and that we were missionaries and they didn't bother us at all. But when we got to the Japanese controlled army, they were a little more suspicious and they wanted to see what we had and where we going and why we were going. And when I said that I was going to be married, well, that was a legit...legitimate excuse. And I wasn't really afraid. But it was...the Chinese carriers were more afraid than we were because they...I suppose they knew more of what the people could do. And when we got to Wungwu, [sp?] that's the rail head.... And we were...thought the Japanese might make a big fuss but they didn't. They....
SHUSTER: Why did you think they might make a big fuss?
OWEN: Well, we foreigners getting out of their...coming into their territory. What were we there for? I mean, the non-Christian mind is suspicious of everything. I mean, especially the military mind. We...you never could convince the communists that we weren't agents of the government. I mean, "What are you doing here? You can't...." They don't understand anyth....
SHUSTER: This was later, right?
OWEN: Later, of course, but I meant the thing is the Japanese, too, think we're spying for their... our country. They just...they're meant....
SHUSTER: Then why'd they let you through?
OWEN: Well, they...when they say we...they...by the time they examined us they realized we weren't smart enough to be spies. [Owen chuckles] Anyway however they let us through and we took the train down to Nanking. Then we had to spend the night and get on another train to go down to...to Shanghai. And a man met us and said he'd take us to a good hotel, by their standards, and it was.
SHUSTER: Who was it who met you?
OWEN: I don't know. Some man. Some Chinese came up and met us. Said he knew a good.... We didn't know whether we'd been taken or not. But we knew enough Chinese so that we could talk to him, both of us. So went and we had really a very nice night. And then the next morning we got the train down to Shanghai, where, of course, we were met by our people and, of course, we were again out of Japanese territory because that was international territory.
SHUSTER: So the man that met you in Nanking, he wasn't with the mission?
OWEN: No, he was just...he was just...
SHUSTER: Someone who worked for the hotel, perhaps?
OWEN: Yes, that's it. Yes, that's it. He was just...and we...it was the Lord's goodness that he wasn't a crook, I mean, that he did take us to a good place. 'Cause nobody stole anything and they didn't overcharge us. I mean, it was...but he was just looking for business. And here were two foreigners. Well, that's good business. So we went there.
SHUSTER: Now, you mentioned you were going down to Shanghai to be married...
OWEN: I didn't...yes...but I wasn't getting married in Shanghai. But I was going to Shanghai to get....
SHUSTER: ...to meet Henry Owen...
OWEN: ...to get a..... No, to get a boat to where we were going to meet.
SHUSTER: Oh, I see.
OWEN: I had another stage of.... I went in circles like this all the way around. No, I was in Shanghai approximately ten days because I left on July...I left on July third and arrived in Chefoo where I got married on the fourth on a ship. [The Owens were married in Chefoo on August 30, 1939]
SHUSTER: And you'd also mentioned that you'd got your wedding dress?
OWEN: Yes. Well, it didn't get...the wedding dress didn't come then. It went to Chefoo. But I got my trousseau. There was a gift there. A hundred U.S. dollars. And with it I bought two pairs of shoes, five dresses, a hat. You know, you could just...it just...the money just was...it was a gift from my friends in California. And I was very thrilled. And so I...we...I did all that shopping and then a lot of necessary things I had. Of course, I'd lost all...everything I'd had before. So I had to get almost all new foreign clothes. And I couldn't wear Chinese clothes anyway. We...and I also saw some very old friends both in the mission and out of the mission. It was a very happy time. They...I...we had been very discreet, Harry and I.. We were not engaged yet. We were going to get engaged. We thought we were going be engaged. We hadn't seen each other for six years. And we thought we must see each other before we actually formally got engaged. And so he had written about...we'd made arrangements...we couldn't meet in Shanghai. He had to go on an earlier boat. He had already gone up there. He had to come all the way....
SHUSTER: Gone already up to Chefoo?
OWEN: To Chefoo. He had come all the way from Yunnan, which was...he'd gone down the road to Hanoi, and Hanoi to Hong Kong, and Hong Kong to Shanghai. Three boats he went on. But he was already up there. But in making...when he got to Shanghai and found hard shipping was to get, he was afraid I wouldn't get a boat. So he said to the transport manager, "Has a party been booked for Chefoo?" And he said, "Well, Miss Williamson." That's one of my bridesmaids. He said, "Miss Williamson and who?" The man did. Very annoying, because they almost all knew that we were friends. And he said, "Miss Goodner." "Oh, yes" he said, "They've got their reservations. They'll be there." [chuckles]
SHUSTER: Why didn't you just meet in Shanghai? Why go to Chefoo?
OWEN: Well, we were going to spend...we both had...we neither one had holidays for three month...three years, I mean. And we were entitled to a two-months holiday. And Shanghai is no place to spend a holiday. Chefoo is on the sea. And also it's a great big CIM compound there. There's a girls' school and a boys' school and the hospital for the mission and five or six mission homes. So we had...we had not...we had not applied to get married. We had applied to go for a holiday to Chefoo...also this was a thought...if we got there and found out after six years we had so changed that we decided we didn't want to, I had enough friends not in the mission compound that I could move out to somewhere else and we could just not have to be embarrassed. But that didn't happen. But that was...we tried to think of the contingencies if we.... When you don't see each other for six years...
SHUSTER: Sure.
OWEN: ...and you'd never seen each other under what you'd call normal things. We'd only been in Moody Bible Institute. That's about the only time we'd seen each other. And at Moody Bible Institute you have to very discreet, you know. And you don't.... And while the attraction was there ...and we both felt...I wasn't sure...he was sure long before I was. And so, that's why we decided to go to Chefoo. That was the best to meet. We thought first of going into Chunking but then was difficult because we had no places place to stay. So we decided to go to...everybody goes to...they have a big what they call "San"[?] there, big holiday rest home, mostly for parents of children...coming to see their children. And people going through. So even if we were in the same building, we wouldn't have to be brought up again.
SHUSTER: You mentioned that you had both...you had both been very discreet about your friendship and contact and possibly getting married. Was that for the mission's sake or was that...why was that?
OWEN: Mostly for the mission's sake. It doesn't help when everybody think you're going to be married and then you're not. If you're absolutely sure, you don't have to be discreet about that. But I had turned him down flatly in Shanghai six years before. And it was not till three years later that I even began praying about it. And I think I told you about that. Anyway...if we came...if we came together and then didn't get married everybody would wonder what had happened. And it was...I mean, it would be awkward all together.
SHUSTER: But it wasn't because the mission had some kind of policy against missionaries marrying?
OWEN: Well, they...you couldn't marry until you had been out two years...that. No, it wouldn't be that. It would be just our own personal feelings that...no, I don't think.... But also you didn't want to get the wrong...suppose if we hadn't...and they had...he had somebody else.... Well, they ...then everybody would say they broke...she threw him over, you know, that sort of thing. We just were...we were just cautious. Anyway, didn't need to be as it turned out but we were.
SHUSTER: What was the kind of process within the mission involved in getting married. Did you have to...
OWEN: Yes.
SHUSTER: ...ask permission...
OWEN: Yes.
SHUSTER ...or...?
OWEN: We had to...we had to write. After we...as soon we were engaged we wrote and said we were engaged.
SHUSTER: Wrote to who?
OWEN: To the general director.
SHUSTER: Bishop [Frank] Houghton?
OWEN: Headquarters. Yes. It was Mr. [D.E.] Hoste at that time.
SHUSTER: Oh, Mr. Hoste.
OWEN: Or was it Mr. [George W.] Gibb? Mr. Hoste retired. It was Mr. Gibb. He was the general director then. We wrote to him and asked...said we wanted to get married. The things is we got engaged on July 8th and married on August 31 [sic]. We didn't...we couldn't afford to come down again we had to do it all at once. And....
SHUSTER: And this was in 1939?
OWEN: Yes, 1939. And so anyway we...I got on the boat and by the time...by the time I started down the railroad I was quite convinced that I was going to accept him. I mean, I didn't think there was any question he was going to ask me. But I...I was so certain...I don't think I should put this in the Archives...maybe you...it doesn't matter...enough people have heard it. When my dear friend Nancy Gaussen [sp?], just after I left her...got engaged...I heard it from everybody else before I heard from her. And she was my closest.... I thought, "I'm not going to have my friends hearing about this." So I wrote a letter as if I were engaged. I could tear it up if I didn't want it. Made six copies...telling them all that.... They all knew about Harry, that I wrote with him...that now we were going to get married...that we were engaged....
SHUSTER: And these were letters to...?
OWEN: To my friends. Circular...mimeograph...I had typewriter...xerox...I mean, carbon paper... carbon copies. Six...to my six dearest friends. Telling them all and all I'd have to do when I got there was to date it and send it off. And if it didn't happen, I'd just tear it up.
SHUSTER: You're all set.
OWEN: All set. [laughs] Anyway, they'd hear it first from me before anybody else. So anyway that's how sure I was. And when I...when our boat pulled into Chefoo he was on the dock. And then I knew. And, of course, he'd known for a long time. But we didn't...we prayed about it that night even then. We'd ask the Lord if it was His will that we not...that we just know carefully. So...he...we both had to tell things about ourselves that we didn't know that we hadn't seen. So we talked... had a good long talk that night. And then the next afternoon our dear friends the Mairs...Alex and Betty Mair had a little cottage there for the summer and they were going move out in two weeks, anyway, and they...they gave it to us.... Well, later. They had it two months and the last week they let us have it for our honey moon. But they invited us for that second afternoon to come over to...to have an announcement party. And they invited....
SHUSTER: Is that a tradition within the mission, to have an announcement party?
OWEN: Well...well, lot...it's not...it's a tradition a lot of places...I mean, it's not always just the mission. But anyway the Mairs.... (I'm going to take my sweater off.)
SHUSTER: Sure. Let me....
OWEN: So the next afternoon the Mairs invited about five people that we especially were close to that were there. And then that was the engagement. And one of the amusing things...I wore a long dress that I had worn at the [T. and O.] Fischbacher's wedding in Hangchow. It was just cotton but it was long. And I wore a corsage...they gave me a corsage. And he had on the typical white linen suit of the...and a boutonniere here and as we were walking home we met Mrs. Mary Howes and her two children, Flora Nell and Mary Ruth Howes, just about four years old then. And I stopped to talk to Mrs. Howes - of course, nobody else had been told except the few...and Mary Ruth kept looking me up and down - my long dress, my flowers and, I guess, my face too. She said, "You look like a lady whose going to get married." [both chuckle] And her mother twigged immediately.
SHUSTER: Very insightful.
OWEN: Very insightful. She was here the other day and I was telling her about this. But it was...she was the first person to announce my engagement. And, of course, her mother immediately remembered and we had very lovely time then.
SHUSTER: Now when you were married, you were married by the grandson of Hudson Taylor.
OWEN: Yes.
SHUSTER: Is that right?
OWEN: James Hudson Taylor the th...second.
SHUSTER: Was he a fam...friend of yours?
OWEN: No, he was the only OMF [CIM is meant] ordained man in the...at the...present that summer. And we were thrilled to have him anyway and he was pleased to do it. He wasn't with our mission. Well, he wasn't an OMF man. He was...he went....
SHUSTER: Free Methodist?
OWEN: Free Methodist, uh-huh. He married a Free Methodist and went with his Free Methodist. And then his grandson...his son became our general director. The Dr. Jim Taylor. We've got a picture back in...in the lounge of Hudson Taylor and his son Herbert Hudson who didn't take the name. Then James Hudson Taylor the second, which is the one that married us. And he's called Hudson and he's called James. Jim Taylor, who's the general and he has a son they call Jamie, who's also in the mission and they have a son who's called J.T. So....
SHUSTER: [chuckles] Have to do that to keep them all straight I guess.
OWEN: Yes. But anyway he was very lovely and we were very pleased to have him. I think we had met him at the thing but we were first going to have somebody else but he wasn't...he didn't come...we were going to have David Bender [sp?] Taylor for a best man and he sprained his ankle. So we kidded him and told him he had to bring...sprained...sprain his ankle to get out of our wedding.
SHUSTER: How long were you in Chefoo before you...?
OWEN: We were there two months. We stayed the whole time because we were going to get married there. We set our date as far along as possible so we'd have the time for vacation before. We married on August 30th. We engaged on July 8th. And meanwhile Harry...Harry preached three days after we married. He'd was...he'd been asked to preach and he didn't...I mean, they didn't know he was getting married on Thursday. He preached on Sunday. But I was glad he did and he was.... And both of us were asked to speak at quite a few things.
SHUSTER: What kind of things?
OWEN: Young people's meetings. Chi...seaside mission. Prayer meetings. At...at the services in several churches. Two or three churches.
SHUSTER: These would have been Chinese churches...
OWEN: No, no...
SHUSTER: ...churches or missionaries...?
OWEN: ...these are all ex-pats...all expatriate. Chefoo had a foreign population of I'm sure several hundred because there was...there was.... Our own mission must have had a hundred people there, which means all the teachers in the school and the people in the san [sanatarium] and the people in the hospital and then...and then.... This church that he preached this Sunday was a union church. It was not connected with our mission at all. It's just a city church. [sneezes] And then there were...there were...then we had...I...I was asked to speak to or three times to the children, to the young people in the school. I went to speak to the girls. And I think he took a meeting with the boys I'm not...I don't remember for sure. But anyway we were kept busy.
SHUSTER: What kind of things would you talk about? About your mission station or...?
OWEN: Well, no. Sometime a little bit but mostly I was asked to speak about how to get through difficulties in life, going through teen ages. And my own personal relationship with the Lord. Spiritual things. I...I mean...I...I had gone...had gone through some really...not difficult times, but very meaningful times with the Lord. And I...and I talked about them some of the experiences I'd had on the field, not with the Chinese but just with my missionary friends or with myself and personal relationships. After all the most difficult thing in the whole...whole world is living with other people. It's just...we're just not made to be really loving to everybody until the Lord gives us that love. And I was.... Because I was single so long I had lived with twenty-one different single ladies before I married. Not in...I don't mean just in a month or week or so. I mean, lived with them for at least three to six months.
SHUSTER: And that was over a six year period?
OWEN: Yes, over six year period.
SHUSTER: Since you've been a missionary?
OWEN: While I'd been a missionary. So I was...one of things that I had postponed marriage I frankly didn't want to obey anybody. I'm a very independent person and I liked doing what I wanted to do and when I wanted to do it. And so forth and so forth. But I had been living with at least four other senior missionaries...[tape recorder turned off and on]
SHUSTER: You were saying how about twenty...about four or five of these twenty-one missionaries you'd....
OWEN: ...were my seniors...
SHUSTER:...lived with were senior missionaries.
OWEN: ...and there were.... I had to obey them. Well, thought if I'm going to have to obey people all my life, I'd rather obey somebody I love than just anybody [Owen chuckles] I mean, that was one of the factors. Another factor that I realized too that I wasn't as independent as I thought I was. And a third thing was I realized that Harry...I mean, men, I think, need a wife on the field more than even at home. It's very difficult. Now a few men...we have a few bachelors in our mission who have lived their whole time and seemed to be successful. Wes Mill [sp?] in Taiwan [sp?] is one. Dr. Henry Bidenthol [sp?] in...in Thailand is another. And the...the two...the two men that went up to the Xinjiang were other.... But most of the men, if they don't have a wife sooner or later they find life too difficult. I mean, they need a wife.
SHUSTER: And they leave the mission or they leave...they go back to the United States.
OWEN: Yes.
SHUSTER: So it's more common for a woman to be single than for men, you'd say?
OWEN: Oh yes.
SHUSTER: Why do you think that is?
OWEN: Well, because women are used to cooking and making a house. I mean, a man doesn't expect to do those things. And...and...and for my husband it wasn't easy. Some men find it easy to...to cook for themselves and look after themselves or clothes and the laundry and everything like that. But some men just don't have it in them to be a...a housewife, a housefather or whatever. [Shuster chuckles] The house.... Because...and it's...and it's not...I don't think it's their role personally. I...I...right now I'm praying for two of our missionaries, that they'll find a wife. I think...I realize already that they're showing stress. They're young. And I...they're showing stress that I think if they had a wife would be...that would be less stressful.
SHUSTER: You mentioned that there was missionaries senior to you or senior missionaries who you had to obey. Was obedience an important characteristic within the mission?
OWEN: Very much so.
SHUSTER: Was that something highly stressed?
OWEN: Very much. I mean, you were...it's a...it was...it's not so much now as it was but it was very authoritarian. I mean, you...the head...the directors or the superintendent and the...it went right down to the senior missionary and so forth. I mean, you did what the one above you.... It was very definitely.... It was British.
SHUSTER: British pattern?
OWEN: Very much. I mean, you...you were conscious of it all the way through. That it was British. And Wilda Matthews, whose book maybe you've heard about, Green Leaf in Drought [the book is actually by Isobel Kuhn and the experiences of Arthur and Wilda Matthews]...well anyway, when she was my coworker we were in.... She said, "Why do they always...why do we always have to change? Why can't they change?" I said, "Honey, we're made that way and they're not." I said...I used to sing to her, "As it was in the beginning as is now and ever shall be with"...I mean, there was a...even....
SHUSTER: When you say, "Why do we have to change and not us [sic]?" do you mean women and men or American and British?
OWEN: No, no. American and British. That's it. I mean.... There was a time when I...maybe I mentioned this in one my...when I was in Yencheng where I was asked to go be with a senior British woman.
SHUSTER: I don't think so.
OWEN: I don't think I did. Well, anyway, I was...I came in from a country trip and Mr. Weller said, "Mrs. Owen...Miss Goodner, I have something to ask you." He said, "Miss..." (...I've forgotten her name now entirely. I'm glad I have.) "...is all alone in Japanese occupied territory. You can get in. She can't get out. But we don't want her to be alone. We...." He said, "Now you won't be able to get out and do any country work. You'll have to just sit in the compound because it's occupied...occupied by the Japanese." But he said, "You'll at least be a companion and you could go head with language study and take another exam or something." And he said, "You don't need to give an answer now. Tell me in the morning." I went upstairs and I was just heartsick. I knew the woman. She's very lovely but she was very British and not too fond of Americans, especially my type of American.
SHUSTER: What was your type of American?
OWEN: Exuberant. Extrovert. Always talking. Always you know in to everything. Not a quite subdued type. I'd never been that type. Anyway...not even at eighty-eight. [both chuckle] And anyway at...I...I sat down and thought oh dear and not to be able to work out in the country or do anything.
SHUSTER: Just essentially keep her company?
OWEN: Yes. Just to keep her...be a companion to her. And I could study and there'd be some Chinese in the courtyard, you see, and I'd know them. But it wouldn't be...it wouldn't be the same. And then I looked up on the wall and there was one of these day...text-a-day calendars and it wasn't for that day at all...it was for.... Because nobody had been in that room for a long time. "In everything you're enriched by Him." Now I know it's not talking about this sort of thing at all. It's talking about speech and...and, you know, how...living. But it spoke to me and I just...very clearly. "This could be an enriching experience, so I'll say yes." And I went to bed and slept quite peacefully. And as I came down the stairs...I hadn't even gotten to the floor...Mr. Weller called up, "Miss Goodner you can forget what I asked you. Miss Thompson has already joined her."
SHUSTER: Oh.
OWEN: I thought, "Lord if I hadn't said I'd be willing to go I'd bet I'd had to go." [both chuckle] I don't know but anyway that was one of the times when I...I agreed to do something that I didn't really want to do and I didn't have to. So I was very glad.
SHUSTER: Tell us an example...I mean, apparently you were given a choice in this case so it was not completely authoritarian...
OWEN: No ,no. No, no. It wasn't in this case because this wasn't in my...he wasn't...he wasn't my superintendent for one thing...
SHUSTER: Oh, I see...
OWEN: ...and also it was not in my area. He was just...well, I was out of my area because of the war and he was...and he wanted to use me. And I was...I was...when they...when I went to Chengyangkwan, I was out of my...and I just put my hands..."Where do you want me to go?" I don't care...'cause I'm not...this is not my...I'm not assigned here...but when you're assigned to someplace you're more or less are supposed to do what the person assigned you...asked you to do. No, I had a choice but I...I had chosen that I would go. But I didn't have to.
SHUSTER: Now I know in Africa Inland Mission, for example, they would have yearly regional conferences or field conferences in which some decisions would be made as far as assignments and policy. Was that also true for CIM?
OWEN: That was also true. We also had field conferences and we also....
SHUSTER: So you had at least that much voice...
OWEN: Oh yes. Oh yes.
SHUSTER: ...with the senior missionary.
OWEN: Exactly. Oh no, it wasn't...it wasn't a question of saying you just have to do this. I mean, you...and after all if you had a reasonable senior missionary, you could reason with him and say, "Well, I don't think that's good for me" or "I don't think I can do that well." And none of them that I had were all in a bit oppressive. And they all were helping me. But I mean, they would suggest that I do and one of...one of the ones I had to do all the time I had to eat breakfast. And that was not one of my favorites. You wouldn't think that was a hardship but for me it was. I just didn't like to eat breakfast. But I ate it.
SHUSTER: You had to eat breakfast together with all the missionaries?
OWEN: Yes, or with...or with just my one missionary this case. The thing is, oh, she felt, "If you didn't eat breakfast you know...." I didn't succumb to the missionary who said I should drink tea. But I said, "Well, I drink water." "Oh, but that isn't good enough. You need tea." That was an elderly doctor. But anyway.... But I...I mean...all of it was part...our wedding was just...our whole honeymoon (we just had for two months) was lovely. People entertained us and we had...one of the big events was we were entertained on the...one of the U.S. ships.
SHUSTER: A gunboat?
OWEN: No. Not just a gunboat. A big....
SHUSTER: Destroyer or cruiser?
OWEN: Cruiser. It was out...it was out on a...and they stopped at that harbor and they invited all the Americans on board to a tea. And that was...I think I have the...right here...it's just right here.
SHUSTER: Okay, you were mentioning that you had been invited...that all the missionaries had been invited to a party on the...
OWEN: ...on this U.S.S. Augusta...
SHUSTER: ...U.S.S. Augusta, which is a naval vessel.
OWEN: Yes. And that was a very lovely occasion. Just two days...three days before we got married. And of course you invited everybody on the whole place to your wedding. They were all expected to come. And we had a...a very lovely...Mabel Williams was my bridesmaid and George Scott was our best man. He later become the head director of England [for OMF], which he wasn't then but he was when he went home....
SHUSTER: And he was a friend of...of Henry's, I imagine?
OWEN: Yes, and that's...so we had a...I...Harry's bes friend, of course, had been John Stam. But John was already dead by the time we got married...in fact...in fact, if Harry had gotten there a month earlier he would have been John's best man. But John got...John got married about a month before Harry arrived in China. They were very good friends at Moody.
SHUSTER: We have a home movie of the Stam's wedding, actually. {BGC Archives Collection 449]
OWEN: Oh, you do. How wonderful. I didn't realize there would be one. But that long ago. I knew Dr. and Mrs. Scott. And I knew John very well. I was at...I just met Betty 'cause she was... she went out to China ahead of John and so she was out there before he...he was still...she went out in '31 and he went out in '32 and I was there at Moody in '31...'32...so his last year at Moody was my year at Moody and I got to know him then.
SHUSTER: And we talked last time too about how you'd gotten news about their death.
OWEN: Oh yes. Oh yes.
SHUSTER: How long...so you...so you left Chefoo about in May, is that right?
OWEN: No. No. We were there...this was in August. We'd had just...We just had two months. We left the end of August and got back to Shanghai, expecting...fully expecting to go to Yunnan, because the policy has always been that the woman goes to the man's station. To our amazement and also to our, really, almost [pauses] grief. We said...we'd been out six years both of us. We were due for a furlough in another year. And the trip back to...to...the trip back to Yunnan would take another month or two. We'd have no time to work. And they either gave us the choice of going back to my district or going to the District of Chekiang which has a dialect neither one of us could speak. They gave us that choice.
SHUSTER: What would be the point of sending you to a place where you had...where you couldn't speak the dialect.
OWEN: Well, we could at least be a comfort to the other missionaries there. And you do...
SHUSTER: Be assistants.
OWEN: ...just...just sort of help things. You could speak...they could understand us. We couldn't understand them. But I didn't want to go. I didn't want to go back to my own...because I knew and it was true it happened that way that I would have to take the lead. Because I would know the earth language. The [unclear] I would know...understand the coolies. I would understand the woman. He...it would be all different to him. They could understand him because he spoke good Mandarin. But he wouldn't understand the local people. Also he was used to dealing with horses and [Chinese term]. I was used to....
SHUSTER: And wagons?
OWEN: No not...wa...sedan chairs. And I was used to dealing with rickshaws and wheelbarrows. And I knew the types of customs there...where they were all entirely different to him. And being the kind of person I am, I didn't want to start up our marriage being the boss. [both chuckle] Not that I was ever the boss, because my husband was a man in his own, but I would have to take the lead in so many things. And I didn't want that to happen and I....also I wanted to go to Yunnan. I thought that would be wonderful.
SHUSTER: So why did you...why did you make the choice for Anhwei?
OWEN: It was Harry's choice and I thought it was very wonderful. He said, "Marguerite," he said, "I don't know all the languages of your people but it's not as bad as Chekiang, I could still read...I could still be useful. Whereas if we go...and you can be useful. But if I go...if we go to Chekiang, neither one of us are going to be useful. We'll waste a year. It doesn't matter if I'm not...if you have to do the most speaking. That's alright." Well, it was really a real gracious gesture on his part. And I admired him for it. Because it turned out it was at the beginning even...even the meetings of the church elders and leaders, I had to come and fit in.... They could understand him. And the Lord gave us the most fruitful year of our years in China. Just....
SHUSTER: Now you were going to Chengyangkwan?
OWEN: Kwan.
SHUSTER: Is that right?
OWEN: Chengyangkwan. That was the place from which I started down the river toward the wedding. It's right near [unclear]. Just a little from [unclear].
SHUSTER: And what was your assignment there? What would you be doing?
OWEN: Church. We were to get the church built up. The Japanese had occupied the place. The...before that the roving communists had taken Mr. Ferguson and never seen again. No one knows what happened to him at all. That was the...the place from which he turned. Then the Japanese had come and they'd kept horses in the mission home. It was...but Miss [H.] Todd, the one I was go to help in [unclear] had come over and hired workmen at a...when she heard we were coming...and at least cleaned the house out. But we had...not a window had glass in it. We had to bring the glass in. And it was completely barren of any furniture. We had to have...well, they had some...but we had to get some made.
SHUSTER: Now was this still occupied by the Chinese...Japanese or...?
OWEN: No they had left or they wouldn't have sent us there. They had retreated. Down to the Japanese...to the Presbyterian station [unclear]...no, that isn't right but anyway. The one I talked about before. Halfway between [unclear] and [unclear]. A Presbyterian station. And they had retreated down there. They were already (although we didn't realize it)...they were sort of pulling toward the coast rather than pushing inward any more. They had looted the place. There wasn't anything left for them to get there.
SHUSTER: So the place was pretty much destroyed. What about...was there a community of believers there? I mean, was there a strong community?
OWEN: There was a small community...not a strong church...it was a small community of believers and in the past they had an elder who was very domineering and not really spiritually helpful. But the coming of the Japanese had sort of knocked him out. I mean, not physically. But he realized that he wasn't as big as he thought he was. And they were ready...they hadn't had a missionary there for some time and so they were ready for teaching. And we just had a wonderful year. Harry started a preaching band and went out all over the countryside and he went to Wuchu [sp?] two or three times. And I went up to a...to a small village up where he hadn't been before to teach the women. And I had a class of girls including two Muslim girls who professed faith. I don't...I trust they went on. I don't know because I didn't...I wasn't back there sinc...afterwards. But...although some missionaries did take over from us...the [Vince and Margaret] Crossetts took over when we left...they were...she wrote a book..
SHUSTER: We have....
OWEN: Yes, you have their tapes. [Collections 287 and 288 in the BGC Archives] Harvest at the Front is her book. She wrote a book. We were mentioned in it. It says having just been taken over.... But we saw the church come from just practically nothing until just...until...very good church when we left and we were very happy.
SHUSTER: About what was its size when you left?
OWEN: I would say a...a little over a hundred, which we think was always very good. The strange thing about Chengyangkwan church, they had a church rule that the men could be immersed but the woman had to be sprinkled.
SHUSTER: Why was that?
OWEN: Well, they didn't think it was modest for their women to be immersed. That was the rule. But the funny thing was that when the people came up for baptism they were told that a Presbyterian.... My husband being a strong Baptist wasn't going to sprinkle people [Shuster chuckles], so he would immerse the men and they...that...this Presbyterian preacher would sprinkle the...he's a very good man from the next station and would come over and sprinkle them. And the young women said, "Oh no, we want Mr. [unclear Chinese name]."
SHUSTER: "We want our pastor to do it."
OWEN: "Yeah, we want...." So he did baptize a few. The older women were glad to sprinkled. They didn't want to go in the water. But the two...the three young girls that were baptized they were all immersed by Harry. But it was a....
SHUSTER: Was that unusual...Was this unusual in a Chinese church to have that kind of...?
OWEN: No, it was very unusual...that's a very...it was a very...
SHUSTER: It was very common?
OWEN: Yea...no not very...
SHUSTER: It was very unusual?
OWEN: Very unusual. Very unusual. Well, you see the whole district had originally been Presbyterian. And then a man in...in a...one of the...Yong [sp?]..Pastor Yong [sp?]...in Yon...in one of the stations up the...between Fowyang which was the big station and [unclear name of station] which was the tail end. In half way between one of...Yencheng. The minister the...I mean, the Chinese minister there...leader...pastor. He wasn't ordained or anything but he was a leader. He went to a conference somewhere and got converted on immersion. And so he came back and made all his people be immersed. And that sort of spread over to CYK, which is Chengyangkwan . And so...some of them fell for it and some of them didn't. Anyway...but the...the policy of the mission which I think is very wise, that no missionary can change the form of government or the form of baptism or the form of the church. The people may but you can't. You...and.... Oh I know, Katie Dodd Schoerner...maybe you have some of Dodd's things there. [BGC Archives Collection 51] Well, she was my...my co-worker. And she was horrified. "Oh, they're making Baptists out of all these Presbyterians." [both chuckle] I happened to marry a Baptist. Harry's a Baptist. So I'm not as hidebound as they were. But that was the rule there. And our year there was...was very good. It was a real good year. We had a couple of scares when we heard guns firing. We knew the Japanese were advancing. But we sang "Oh God, our help in ages in past. Our hopes for years to come," and went to bed and slept. And they never came. I don't know why. There was nothing to stop them. Between us and the Japanese army there was nothing but bare...bare fields. I mean, they could have marched up...I don't think they think there's anything worth taking you know. We had the only clock in the whole village, in the whole city. I mean, nobody else had.... So...in order that we have some res... reasonable residue of time Harry got a book on sun dials and made us a sun dial. So he set his watch by sun dial. And when we came out it seemed to be right so that was pretty good.
SHUSTER: Who made up the church? Were these people from all parts of the community or...?
OWEN: They were mostly country people that came in. But some of them were city people. There weren't any intellectuals. There weren't any prominent people at all.
SHUSTER: So it was mainly farmers?
OWEN: Farmers and small businessmen...tradespeople. They were people who...who in one way or another had need...had heard the gospel and responded.
SHUSTER: They were mostly first generation Christians?
OWEN: Mostly. There were hardly any second generation Christians at that time. Of course, later on there were many but not...not then. Because the church was comparatively new. The...the compound was nice. We had a two story house, very farm looking. And that...it's got a picture right here of that. The house where we were. Our first home.
SHUSTER: Mrs. Owens is going...Mrs. Owen is going through a scrapbook...her wedding scrapbook [BGC Archives Collection 534, Box 3, Folder 3] which has some photos and material from that time period. Showing me a picture there.... Oh yes...
OWEN: That's the home and that was...
SHUSTER: ...Black and white photo.
OWEN: Yeah, they're all black and white. That's inside the house.
SHUSTER: And the comp...it's showing the compound. So there was a walled compound outside with gardens...
OWEN: Yes...
SHUSTER: ...and flower. It looks very nice. And so you mentioned it was mainly farmers and small businessmen. There were no prominent people. And there were also no poor or...?
OWEN: There were no terribly poor. There were some....We didn't have any beggars like we did in Taiho. There were some I would say who were near poverty level. I mean, they had such small business. Well, there was a vegetable seller that became a real leader. But not in the church there. In the out-station. Up at...just up about...and actually he was saved before we got there. But we had the joy of seeing him build a church eventually before we left. He had come down. This is one of my Harry's favorite stories, Mr. Chen.
SHUSTER: What was his name?
OWEN: Chen.
SHUSTER: C-h-u-n?
OWEN: C-h-e-n. He...he...before we ever came there when the...when the church...when the Japanese had just left the church in the shambles and there was...the only thing left there was a gate keeper. Now the gate keeper was a professing Christian but he didn't act too much like it. I mean, I believe maybe he was truly converted later, but he was...it was just a job in other words. But he kept the church...He did know the Gospel 'cause he'd heard it because he was the gate keeper. And this Mr. Chen had...was moved on by the Spirit very long before we...this is long...this is what he told us later. He just had such a terrible conviction of sin. He said, "I was awful to my wife and to my children." He said, "I went to the Buddhists and I drank with them and I went to the Taoists and I smoked opium with them." And he said, "None of them had any...and always I had this sin. And then someone told me that there was a place up there that talked about you could get rid of your sin." And he went and he asked the gatekeeper and the gatekeeper said, "There's nobody here now." Well, he said, "What's it all about." So the gatekeeper very simply told him the Gospel. And he gave him...I think, a Gospel of John. I'm not sure I don't remember that detail particularly. But at any rate he felt that...he read whatever it is. He was completely converted. And he read with avidly. And was...so when we came...
SHUSTER: Where did he get material to read?
OWEN: This Bible. This one...just the testament. That's all he had, just had this New Testament that...that...or Gospel of John. But it was the New Testament I think that the gate keeper gave him. And there was no services then at all being held because no one was there. So as soon as we started services he heard about it and he came in. He came in usually...he still came in the city to sell his vegetables. But he was a...a man that had real high principles inside. Amazingly. I mean, I had many long talks with him and I know how he worked. I mean, for one time...well, I'll go get it in order. He came in...he would just ate up everything that Harry preached. Just ate...took it all in and wanted to get some more litera...some more Christian literature. Meanwhile he had a real difficult time at home because nobody else...they just laughed at him. He was just, after all...just a vegetable seller. What'd he think he knew about anything. What'd he think he knew about anything.
SHUSTER: When you say at home, you mean in his home...?
OWEN: In his home when he went back he was about three miles...about five miles up the...up the ro...river. He came down from the city with these big baskets of vegetables and sell them and when he got his money go back home at night.
SHUSTER: So the people laughing at him would be his family or his...
OWEN: Yeah, family and...
SHUSTER: ...his village?
OWEN: ...all the people around him. They...they all just.... So, anyway he said...he...he started coming and the more he came he...he said, "Would you come out" to Harry and me "and have meetings with us?" So we did. Not together because one of us needed to be at...but we...Harry when out and had special meetings. And I went out and had a daily vacation Bible school, is what it amounted to. And we talked....
SHUSTER: For the children?
OWEN: For...and adults. For all of them. I mean, a day...day study for everybody who wanted to come. And he came every Sunday and he would just drink it in and go back and then...so he decided that they needed to hear this so he opened the front of his house and would invite all the people in to listen to him. Well, he got so many people so interested that he couldn't...they couldn't fit in his little front place. So he opened a...a...meanwhile he made enough money but not spending any money on opium or drink to buy...open a little tiny...a little tiny shop you know that sells matches and this and this and little bit...seeds and so forth. But he built...behind... on the back...using the back of his house as one wall, he put a...a sort of a straw roof and some poles. No sides and...and made an open eating place back there. And when I went out...by the time I got there, they had forty or fifty people sitting out there for...and it was...really just was going.... And...And so Harry said, "You know you ought to be made a deacon." "Oh," he said, "I can't be." Or an elder. I don't know which he asked him. He said, "The church would make you one you know." He said, "I can't be." And Harry said, "Why not?" He said, "Well, it says that you should love your wife. I just can't love my wife." She was very much of a harridan [shrew] and she just was.... He said, "And I can't control my children." They were already, of course, big teenagers before he found the Lord. And Harry said, "Well, if you ask the Lord I think he'll help you. Anyway you're entitled to be because of your faith and your leadership." And before we left...we'd been there...we were there a year and a half...we saw a building, mud-brick but a building built on the main street that was the church of that little village. And it was one...it was all one man. I mean, he was just he...but he was so...he was so earnest and so much...you know. The fact that he had such a conviction of sin before he knew about it. I mean, that was the Holy Spirit working. And it was wonderful.
SHUSTER: Were you able to stay in touch with him after you left?
OWEN: No, no. Not at all. You see we...we were...we couldn't write. He didn't...he couldn't write. And I...while he read characters I doubt if he could have read our writing. And then, of course, by the time the communists came in they wouldn't let...you wouldn't dare write to anybody. We were told when we left, "Don't write to us. We don't want to be associated with foreigners." Now at that time it wasn't but we thought we were coming back in a year. We didn't know that the war was going to break all over, you see.
SHUSTER: You mentioned there to teach a daily vacation Bible school and also Bible teaching. When you were starting to teach people who were...who were not Christians or who had just become Christians, what did you try and do in your Bible study? What...what stories did you choose to teach and what were you trying to do?
OWEN: Well, the first I...you...we always try to tell them about creation. God. A sense of God. And also what sin is. You know...they...if you sin...the same word in Chinese for sin is also the word for suffering. So, of course, "Oh yes, I suffered. I had three children" you know...well, that's not...you know...that's just...they don't...they get the two.... And to...to...to teach them what it means. And you need...they need to know that God is holy. That he is great. That he is...that he is loving. That's something they never heard. That's the thing more...more than anything else. I never remember...never forget the little girl...little woman in Taiho that said...came and told us that we...after what we'd been telling her "Jesus loves me. Jesus loves me." I mean, we had been telling her that but she had to tell us because it was that....I mean, to tell people that had never been loved that God loves them that's still something you know. I remember what Karl Barth said to someone, "What's the most profound doctrine you ever learned?" He said, "I learned it from my mother: Jesus loves me." And it is. I mean, the fact that the whole thing. The fact that God loves us. I mean, if it wasn't God who loves us he wouldn't have sent his son to die. There wouldn't have been anything. And I thought that was very good for somebody that you don't really expect to be sound. But it...I just heard...read this and...but anyway then I...I began to tell them stories of Jesus and who he was and how he lived. His birth, of course,. And his...we always had...got him to his crucifixion as well, too, and his resurrection all of that. His whole life. But all the things that he did in his life were fascinating to them and they.... I also talked to...I talked to older women about heaven. Life was so horrible for so many of them. I mean, not horrible but just burdensome. I mean, there's nothing in their lives except drudgery. I mean...I mean, I talked to so many. Their husbands don't love them they just hired them to be childbearers and housekeepers. They've never been told that they're loved when their children particularly. Especially if they're girls, women. And to tell them that someday you know there's going to be place .... There was...I said to think that there'd be no dirt there. And Vincent said to me, "Where does it say out of the Bible that there's no dirt?" [Shuster laughs] I said, "Listen, Vincent, if there only gold streets there's not going to be any dirt. I mean, the dirt comes of the ground."
SHUSTER: Who...who asked you that?
OWEN: Vincent Crossett. He was always as particular. "Where you get...what's the Scripture for that?" And I said anyway for them it was...and I know...and there's no sorrow and no sighing I mean...no pain. That's what gets me now. I can hardly wait to get to the place where there's no pain. But...these we taught and then the simple Gospel. Just as...as a...as a Christ was born and lived for us and died and rose again, I mean. With...but you nearly always started with...with God. Because if you don't who God is and if you don't what sin is it doesn't ..., "What am I saved from if I'm not a sinner?" you see. And they need to know that. But I didn't...I never had any trouble convincing people they were sinners even though they did mix it up with suffering. Oh, they knew they were...they had a conviction of sin that I think the Holy Spirit gives. And to know that it's forgiven and that even the things.... I just finished reading a book The Heart is Darkness. It's a story of a Japanese girl who had a very unhappy childhood. A mother who was a prostitute. A father who had left her mother and that's why she became a prostitute. They weren't married. I mean, the father of the girl had left her. And she was despised by her compatri...her patr...her companions...her peers because of being in that home. She was rejected and her heart was just hard and then gradually the Gospel comes in. But she now...the whole book is this letter to her minister. She said, "I don't think I can be baptized. I can't love my mother." She said, "I try to love her and I just..." you know. And there's a friend who talks to her and he says, "Do you think that all the Christians are people that love everybody." He said, "That's what God loves us for. Because we're not perfect." Anyway, it's a very interesting and she's truly converted. Without or your hearing...
SHUSTER: Just the...just the headphone...
OWEN: Yes.
SHUSTER: When you were in the church you and your husband did you...were you looking for people to train as leaders or to prepare as leaders?
OWEN: My husband did. I didn't think I did. I mean, he took a...he took a group out every month or every two weeks and had them preach in a....
SHUSTER: Chinese Christians?
OWEN: ...Chinese...in Chinese...out on the streets or in a country village....
SHUSTER: But I mean, these were Chinese Christians?
OWEN: Yes, Chinese Christians.
SHUSTER: Yeah.
OWEN: He got a really...it was a Gospel team. And they would go out and teach. And we as far as administrating any duties we left that all to the Chinese themselves. The Chinese pastor who hadn't been so...had come back even though he fled before the Japanese...he came back. And he was much more shall we say responsive to the Spirit than he had been before. I mean, he didn't try to Lord it over the flock at all.
SHUSTER: Was he older?
OWEN: Elder. Very much older. And not...not particularly gifted or spiritual but he was one that had been chosen. I think maybe chosen by a former missionary long before you know appointed. We didn't appoint any leaders. We just trained them. I taught the girls. And...but I didn't ...I didn't have any women that I felt were capable of being Bible women. I would have gladly taught them if I could.
SHUSTER: What kind of qualities did you look for in a Bible woman?
OWEN: Someone who is compassionate for all the people around her for one thing and another thing that will...that grasps truth...you can see there's understanding of it. And also that can tell somebody else about it. As Timothy says, "give it to other men who can give to them." [II Timothy 2:2] And if they can't con...convey it to someone else they can't be reliable as a Bible woman. I've had some excellent Bible women other places. The one that I remember not as a Bible woman but one that we couldn't train because she could not remember anything. We taught to read and she can read and she loved the Lord. But she would always...she would go get Li Lan Kan [sp?], you come see. You come see." She...she couldn't tell it herself. If she tried to stand up and give a testimony, it was a garble. She just...you know. But on the other hand I've had some...we had some that could just preach the Bible from Genesis to Revelation without stopping. [both chuckle] So you have different kinds.
SHUSTER: And you were at this church for a year?
OWEN: A year-and-a-half about. We got there in September or October, I guess. And we left a year...the following Dece....
SHUSTER: At the same time you were starting the church you were also a newlywed couple. Was there many adjustments to make there or...?
OWEN: No, no. We...We...we had both...one thing we were both senior missionaries by this time. Both had all our languages. We weren't studying. We...I mean, except to prepare, but we didn't have to pass any language exams. We didn't have any children. We had...we had...we had some adjustments in...we had...we were given a junior missionary. After we'd been there only three months or so and the superintendent apologized and said, "We don't like to give a junior missionary to a couple that's just married." But he says, "We got no place else to put him." So we took him and he was a very, very enjoyable young man.
SHUSTER: Do you recall his name?
OWEN: Yes, [W. A. C. Harvey] Bill Harvey Dobson. He's with the Lord. Has been for a long time. He left the mission very shortly after he left us. Not because of anything about we did. [Shuster chuckles] He went down...he had to go down to Shanghai...he went completely deaf and he had to go down for medical.... And while he was down there he fell in with one of these cults that Watch...that Watchmen Nee...and he joined that cult. And then he got...and then the war came and the British army came in and he joined the British army and went back to England. Meanwhile, he had married one of our American girls after he went down to Shanghai and she went home on of the first repatriation ships as the war was com...as the Japanese war grew closer. And then he...then I think if she had...I don't know...it was.... He wouldn't...he wouldn't have anything to do with us later. When we went to London, we tried to look him up and his wife came 'cause she was an old friend of ours from Moody. And she said, "Bill's just really gone away so far from the Lord. He just doesn't want to do anything at all."
SHUSTER: You mentioned Watchman Nee. Could you say a little bit about him? About the church?
OWEN: Well, he...he's a wonderful Bible teacher. We went to hear him preach in Shanghai and I read his books and they're excellent. And I don't think he's to blame for all of the things that have been blamed for him. But in a certain period of his time, he thought all the missionaries were sort of bound down, their tradition and all this sort of thing. And he...his...either his followers or those who took his ideas spread a whole lot of churches in north China. They just....
SHUSTER: Because they thought the church should be led by Chinese...
OWEN: Yes, yes...
SHUSTER: ...instead of missionaries?
OWEN: That was part of it. And part of it they didn't think they were spiritual enough. It was....
SHUSTER: The missionaries weren't spiritual enough?
OWEN: No, no. The churches weren't spiritual enough.
SHUSTER: The churches weren't.
OWEN: Yes. I really don't know except at the time we all thought he was a heretic. I realized later he wasn't. But he was...probably...he wasn't Pentecostal either. He was just...he just was at a ...a different wave length. And he was...But since I've been home I've ready so many of his books...several of his books. And also I've read more about his history and actually I think he was a real man of God. But he was...I think he was rebelling against what I think was the paternal ...excuse me...the paternalistic attitude of the missions. I... Now we were in the...I was in the tail end of that period. We're not that way now at all. We've completely gone away from it and we were going away from it when I first came. But before I came and in the...well, in the.... It wasn't that way in Hudson Taylor's time...but during the centuries they became a settled traditional British assembly thing. And missionaries hired the...the evangelists. They hired the people and they paid them. I think maybe last time I mentioned the five kings of Honan.
SHUSTER: Yes, you did.
OWEN: I did and that was part of it. Well, now the station I went to had been...there had been....
SHUSTER: You mean the station when you first came out?
OWEN: Well, the second one I went too. Taiho. First one too but I know more in particular about Taiho. There had been some people there. I don't think it was a couple it might have been two ladies that built a foreign style house and lived in a foreign style way. And they had a whole lot of boys that they brought in and taught and they had a big organ there which I loved to play. They left it, of course. And the...a pump organ, but nevertheless a big one. And then they sent all these boys off to high school and paid for their education. Not one of those boys ever became a leader or Christian...even a Christian. And this sort of thing had...was suddenly apparent in a great many places. Paid Christians that were just not really born again. And...and mission.... And then I also came across this and several other missionaries talking to them. Missionaries that...young men that were really gifted and really called but they were sent to America for training. They never came back.
SHUSTER: Chinese...You mean Chinese men?
OWEN: Chinese. Uh-huh. This country is absolutely filled with foreign Filipinos, Chinese Koreans. [Unclear] and they come over and get an education and never go back. And it's....
SHUSTER: And often they're the brightest or the most talented?
OWEN: Yes, the brightest and the best in town. And this...I think Watchmen Nee was against that. I mean, I think he was...he saw the paternalism and the colonialism and I think but anyway...
SHUSTER: You mentioned that you heard teach or preach....
OWEN: In Chicag...In Shanghai.
SHUSTER: Shanghai.
OWEN: He was down there first.
SHUSTER: What kind of...What kind of impression did he make on you personally? How would you describe him?
OWEN: We were...we sat there and just thrilled to listen to him. He was really preaching. And the funny...the thing I remember as much as anything. In the middle of his thing he'd say thronos you know get the Greek...he'd use the Greek word right in the middle. He said, "Take the"...in Chinese... "Take the Chinese...take the Chinese off the...take the devil...take the devil or yourself off the thronos and put God on." On the throne.
SHUSTER: Off the throne?
OWEN: Yes. And he was...but he had real spiritual messages. We thought...found him very...we'd never him. We'd heard about him. But we were in Shanghai on our...this was on our way for furlough. [1940] Our first furlough. So we went to hear him. I think most missionaries did go to hear him once or twice. His Chinese, of course, was beautiful because he was born in China. And course I had heard Wang Ming Tao and he is marvelous. And I had heard [unclear, name of man] and I had heard...who was the other one I'd heard. I'd heard Andrew Gih. And so I'd heard some of the best men in China they were really good. But Wa....
SHUSTER: How did he compare to them?
OWEN: I would say he was on a par with Wang Ming Tao. They were both equally gifted men and very good speakers. And...I mean, and I think he had a bad name which he didn't really completely deserve. All though there's this about it. A leader has a certain idea and he commit...commutes...con....
SHUSTER: Communicates it?
OWEN: Communicates it to his chil...to his followers. But they take it on farther to a different degree and it becomes...the first thing you know its off of the tablets [?] But that's all the cults are that way. You know they start off maybe sound enough and the leader...the leader would...would abhors what they did later. But you can't control what people do. Anyway, that was our experience there.
SHUSTER: Anything else that you want to say about the church in Chengyang...
OWEN: ...kwan.
SHUSTER: ...kwan?
OWEN: One interesting and amusing incident because this is typical of some places. As I said there had been there no missionaries there for a long while. And the last missionary that had been there was Robert...it was not Robert Ferguson...it was Dr. Ferguson...I don't know his first name. But he was the one who was tak...Henry [S.] Ferguson...he was...
SHUSTER: He was kidnaped by the communists.
OWEN: He was kidnaped by the communists. [ca. 1934] His moth...his wife had already died. And he had been...he had been administering family relief funds and they...either he went with them or some say that he was...they were buried around there. All kinds of torn up things to try to find the money. I don't think anybody ever found it. But anyway, be that as it may, he had had a...he had...he was one of the last of the Britishers who gave.... And on every Christmas they had a big meeting and everybody was given peanuts...Christmas. Everybody was given peanuts and candy.
SHUSTER: All the church members?
OWEN: All...everybody who came. The church would be just packed, you know. And...we came and had a Christmas and we didn't do any of that at all. We didn't give...provide....
SHUSTER: Why was that?
OWEN: Well, we didn't have the money for one thing. And another thing we didn't think it was...I mean, we didn't think that's what Christmas was about. I mean, we...we had a...we decorated the church and we had a program and we learned Scrip...we learned carols. And we had a...what we thought was a Christmas program. Of course, we didn't know about this before. But every...all of the sudden everybody's saying " [unclear, Chinese phrase meaning] "Where are the peanuts]?" "Where are the peanuts?" And we didn't have any. And, oh, they were quite disgusted with us. A lot of the people...course the Christians weren't. They weren't...They knew the better. But I mean, the crowds that used to come in for that sort of thing and that was typical in a lot of places where in the big church at [unclear, name of province] where...the Presbyterian church...they had just given so many things that...I would say that...well, one of the missionaries told me at one time that everybody in the church was somebody who had received something from the mission. A job or a gift or some....
END OF TAPE