This is a complete and accurate transcript of the tape of the fifth part of the oral history interview of John Von Casper "Jack" Wyrtzen (CN 446, T5) in the Archives of the Billy Graham Center. No spoken words have been omitted, except for any non-English phrases which could not be understood by the transcribers. Foreign terms which are not commonly understood appear in italics. In very few cases words were too unclear to be distinguished. If the transcriber was not completely sure of having gotten what the speaker said, "[?]" was inserted after the word or phrase in question. If the speech was inaudible or indistinguishable, "[unclear]" was inserted. Grunts and verbal hesitations such as "ah" or "um" were usually omitted. The transcribers have not attempted to phonetically replicate English dialects but have instead entered the standard English word the speaker was expressing. Readers should remember that this is a transcript of spoken English, which follows a different rhythm and rule than written English.
Some portions of the interview that involving living persons have been removed from this transcript and from any copies made of the tape of this interview. The removals have been indicated in the text. This restriction will expire on December 31, 2030.
... Three dots indicate an interruption or break in the train of thought within the sentence on the part of the speaker.
.... Four dots indicate what the transcriber believes to be the end of an incomplete sentence.
( ) Words in parentheses are asides made by the speaker.
[ ] Words in brackets are comments by the transcriber.
This transcript was made by Robert Shuster, Ruth Estelle and Arnila Santoso and was completed in November, 2002
Collection 446, T5. Interview of John Casper "Jack" Wyrtzen by Robert Shuster, October 5, 1991.
SHUSTER:...interview with Dr. Jack Wyrtzen, part three, which occurred on October 5, 1991.
[Portion of interview omitted.]
SHUSTER: Let me just ask you why they allowed the meetings to be scheduled in the first place?
WYRTZEN: Why they allowed them to be held?
SHUSTER: Uh-huh
WYRTZEN: Because there's more freedom in Hungary than any other country behind the Iron Curtain [Communist Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union]. When we come back be sure I tell you about the...how we got into Poland too.
SHUSTER: Okay.
WYRTZEN: That's a very interesting story too.
SHUSTER: We'll take a break here. [Tape recorder turned off and back on.] Ok, yeah, it looks like we're picking up. We took a brief break for lunch, and now we're back again. I had wanted to ask you about your [pauses] theory or belief about Christian leadership. With someone like yourself who is the leader of a ministry, what are the principles that you think are important in leading that ministry? How do you serve as servant the servants of God?
WYRTZEN: Well, "In a multitude of councils there is safety" [Proverbs 11:14]. We have a board of directors of twenty-three men, and we have four or five or six meetings a year with them, and they keep pretty close tabs on all the work. Then we have a council of over a hundred men and women across the world, and we have a separate board in each country. [pauses] I think...all four leaders, Harry, George, Joan and I, we meet right here in my study often. And often times we have three or four hours, just discussing which way we're going what we're planning to do, and places we need correction. And it is not a one man leadership by any means. I would say Harry Bollback is...we often kid and say he's the brains of Word of Life. He's a great preacher, great song writer, great missionary. He reached the Savante Indians [of Brazil] that no one ever reached before. He also is great on finances, and we consult him about anything like that.
SHUSTER: You mean financial planning or...
WYRTZEN: Yeah.
SHUSTER: ...fund-raising?
WYRTZEN: Yeah, he knows all about financial planning and knows whether we should be going ahead with things or hold back, and when to cut, and.... But all of us will throw in our two cents worth. If we think we're getting off somewhere we'll mention it, and why we should get back. Sometimes we find that [pauses] I think we or probably every church or Christian organization have got to watch it that we don't say, "Hey we're it, everything has to agree with us, and everything has to revolve around us." We often talk about that. And we often tell our gang, "Hey, [pauses] a lot of people and a lot of organizations, we may not agree with, but that's really none of our business. Let's get on with the job." Now when things cross our path, we have to make decisions on who to work with.
SHUSTER: And what do you base those decisions on?
WYRTZEN: Well, for one thing everybody in Word of Life has to have a quiet time. So we get a lot of brain waves out of just studying the Bible every day, and we share that with one another. [pauses] I think the most important thing in a Christian's life is that quiet time, the time they get alone with the Lord. And then the Lord helps you to set your compass for the day.
SHUSTER: Uh-huh. [Pauses] How do you handle conflicts within Word of Life ministries. There must be times when there are disagreements. How do you resolve it?
WYRTZEN: Mainly by discussing it and praying about it. [pauses] And if we think we've made a wrong decision, admit it and go on. Amazing how the Lord can overrule our mistakes even. And over and over again where we thought, "Well, maybe we went a hair too fast on this," looking back a few years later and say, "Hey the Lord took us right through."
SHUSTER: Can you think of an example?
WYRTZEN: Yeah, but I don't think I want to tell you about it. [laughs]
SHUSTER: Oh, okay. ...There....
WYRTZEN: For instance when we've had leaders in Brazil like Harry, and Harold ran all of Brazil. It was our first foreign field. Well, it was hard on Brazil when we brought Harry home. But most of our leaders have been, most of our leaders should have been praying on the foreign field [coughs], where the blood sweat and tears are, so they're good men. But when you had only Brazil and all the money, all the emphasis, all the prayer was going into there, all of a sudden you're spread out on six continents. Sometimes there's...I'm sure in the heart of Brazil, although they would never express this, they wonder, "Hey what happened to us?" It's like having an only child, and all of a sudden you have five or six children. The first one doesn't get all of the attention.
SHUSTER: So how do you help them handle the transitions?
WYRTZEN: Well, one thing they is they go over and start traveling and they see what's going on. That does an awful lot of good. And all of our leaders, then, every other year we have all of our leaders from all over the world for a conference. And every two years we have a big conference here. Every two years in South America. EuroYouth is coming up this next year in Budapest. I'm going to have all of our leaders there for that, we're going to have thousands of young people from all over Europe there for that.
SHUSTER: Let me read your quote here from one of the...from The House that God Built by...which is the story Word of Life ministries.
WYRTZEN: By Harry Bollback.
SHUSTER: By Harry Bollback, right. [pauses] [pages turning] It's talking here...it says, "Jack doesn't need to check every little detail for his total confidence in the men that he is sending out for each task. Jack's great desire, which he's had from the day he dedicated his life to the Lord, is being realized, his desire to mult himself...multiply himself spiritually." What part does this...what part does this idea of spiritually multiplying yourself play in leadership?
WYRTZEN: Well, Paul Bubar who started the Word of Life Bible clubs, when I challenged him, I finally said, "Okay Paul, that's leave the vision we have for, we don't want clubs outside of churches or to be competition to churches. We want them in churches. You take it and run with it." And I think all over the world we've been that way with our leaders. They're choice men, they're well trained, they know what they're doing, and so, hey, loosen and let them go. I think a lot of organizations are ruined by trying to run.... Well, I know one mission organization, tried to run all over South America from America, and you can't do that. And you have to have good leaders, you turn it over to them, and let them go.
SHUSTER: It's the principle of decentralization you were talking about earlier.
WYRTZEN: Uh-huh
SHUSTER: It's something that goes throughout the whole organization.
WYRTZEN: Yup
SHUSTER: Here's another quote, [pauses], says, "This question of detail shows up even in his home," (this again is the book...from the book The House that God Built), "the question of detail shows up even in his home, his daughter Betsy says, 'He's impractical, he might have a big vision for getting housework done as long as everyone else does it. [Wyrtzen laughs] But he just doesn't realize the details involved. Others remember a story from the first year of camp opened at Word of Life. An old barn had been unoccupied for a long time and was to be used by the staff. The dirt was nearly an inch thick and had to be cleaned. Jack arrived on the scene to show the clean up crew how to do the job, [ Wyrtzen laughs] but in the next five minutes dust was scattered in every direction. No one could even stay in the room. Jack said, 'Now that's how it should be done and left.'" [Wyrtzen laughs] Does that seem to you to be an accurate reflection of....
WYRTZEN: Yeah, I guess so .
SHUSTER: You're not so much a detail person, as a....
WYRTZEN: Nope. I see a job that has to be done, "Go ahead and do it.
SHUSTER: But not so much about the details as the over-all planning, or the....
WYRTZEN: Yeah, we have one girl here from...from Formosa, and she was put on the cleaning crew, up at camp, and we turned her out because she did such a crummy job. And the girl that was heading up the cleaning crew said to her, "You don't know how to even use a vacuum cleaner, you don't know how to use a broom, didn't your mother ever train you?" She said, "No, over in Formosa we have six maids."
SHUSTER: Hmm.
WYRTZEN: By the end of the summer she was one of our best workers. So Harry Bollback says, "Somebody'll tell me something that they think is a great idea, and I won't give any answer. Maybe several months later, I'll come up with that idea and think it was mine [laughs]." So he says all the leaders have a way of planting seeds into my brains [laughs] so that maybe they'll think...I'll think it was my idea when it comes. [laughs]
SHUSTER: Let me ask you something about Christian organizations in general, and I guess this is true of churches too. It seems that one of the [pauses] errors that churches, Christian organizations tend to is kind of a cult to personality, and everything seems to be in...like they just build around one person, the leader or the founder. In a real extreme case, you see this with somebody like Jones...Jim Jones [James Warren Jones, founder of the People's Temple, a cult group from the United States that moved to Guyana and then committed mass suicide in 1978.] There seems to be a tendency; and you might remember the book that Joe Bailey wrote called The Gospel Blimp.
WYRTZEN: Yeah. Paul Bubar, who I talked about with our clubs, played the lead in that.[the film that was made from the book]
SHUSTER: Oh really?! I didn't know that. What do you think causes this kind of thing in Christian organizations?
WYRTZEN: One man rule. Instead of a pastor having elders and deacons. Just like we do, we sit around and talk and pray, we do that in this room. And we'll have hour after hour after hour, discussing different moves ahead. Should we or shouldn't we? Then I've noticed that often as the leader moves on or retires (and nobody retires in World of Life except for when we go to bed at night) because you know it takes you years and years and years of experience, but then they'll ruin it and they put on a search committee. Well, I would hate if I dropped dead, and they put out a search committee for somebody to take over World of Life. Because there are so many things you do automatically that if an outsider came in, I think the guy would have a ulcer in a year's time and drop out, which happens in a lot of organizations. A very prominent organization called me up a couple years ago, and they had a search committee looking for a new president, and I said, "Hey you're calling the wrong person 'cause I don't believe in search committees," I said, "You mean to tell me that out of your own rank, you don't have a leader? I said, "Forget it." I said, "We have leadership all over the world, and I think any wise leader, should have the next man...the next man, the next man all moving along. All four of us we had plenty to do, I mean, we work from here, but we have leaders all over the world and we don't tell them what to do. We go out and pray with them, have fellowship, and you know a lot of people say, "Turn it over to the nationals." Well, Hal Reimer who directs our work in Brazil, he's married to a national. And people don't look at Hal Reimer as an outsider. He's part family. And we have a lot of nationals who head up our work. But we don' t domineer them and they don't domineer us, we just work together. And I think when it gets to the one man leadership, you get into a lot of trouble.
SHUSTER: Now somebody who was organizing a search committee would probably say in response to that by bringing somebody in from outside, you're getting fresh blood, you're getting a new perspective. How would you react to that?
WYRTZEN: We have so many fresh ideas all the time [laughs] that we're always running ahead of ourselves,, so.... Actually, I think the Lord is the one who gives you the ideas. You know as I mentioned when we started out I did all the preaching. Now we have hundreds of guys who are very, very good preachers and so you can...you can scatter. And, again developing leadership overseas was the blood, sweat and tears are. I mean Harry Bollback was shot at by the Indians. For several days they tried to kill him. He's been through it. He built our first camp in Brazil, our first Bible Institute in Brazil, which is now a seminary. Now we have five camps in Brazil and three schools. He pioneered all that. George Snipes [?] pioneered the northeast of Brazil. He started radio, television, a school, a camp, an open air work, school work, university work. So he's been through it. Joe Jordan worked with us...we picked him up in a jail in Florida. Well, he was saved. He was saved, saved on the island [Word of Life Island in New York]. Well, twenty years [ago] he started there [Argentina] all alone. He left with a staff of two hundred to come work with us all over the world, and he was able to turn it over to great nationals, great national guys. And sometimes it's hard for Americans because they don't want to work with nationals. Well, we don't have that trouble. We have nationals going out to work with Americans under them all over the world, and no sweat, it just all turned out fine. But family...I think, again, once you realize that you're in a family.... That's the trouble. You get these things so organized. For instance several years ago I was in a certain city, on an evangelistic crusade, six Tuesday nights in a row, under a very well known group of Christian business men. They had done it before and they had a lot of evangelists in, so we had a...well, I'll tell you, it was Washington D.C. We had a good meeting. But Wednesday night we're in Sunbury, Pennsylvania, and CBMC [Christian Businessmen's Committee] ran it there. They had never run a crusade before. They were getting up at four or five o'clock in the morning and having prayer meetings and crying out to God. We had to move the campaign four times, into a larger place. And I think you lose that freshness and expecting. Now, Washington had done it before, it was just another meeting. Sunbury, it wasn't another meeting. And I used to tell our quartet, when, you know, some nights we had two or three hundred in our church and the next night we'd have two or three thousand. Madison Square Garden with a much larger crowd. I 'd say, "Remember we're going to this little country church with about two or three hundred there. To that pastor, this is Madison Square Garden, and you'd better go into that with the same enthusiasm as you go into a citywide crusade." And I think that's very important.
SHUSTER: And you feel that by having the organization set up decentralized as a family, is a better way of maintaining that kind of spirit and that kind of freshness, than trying to do by some kind of organizational method, like search committees and...
WYRTZEN: Yeah.
SHUSTER: ...bring leaders from....
WYRTZEN: Another thing we told all our leaders at the end of any great big thing, go to a country church the next day. Like after any of our Boston Garden, Philadelphia Convention Hall, Madison Square Garden rallies, which we still have, the next day we usually go to a country church and preach, because it brings you right down to where the people are. You can get bigshotitis. When I first started hanging around, preaching at the generals' breakfast in the Pentagon, and meeting with senators, this stuff could go to your head [Shuster laughs] If you lose sight of the fact that you're in there to.... I remember the first time [President Ronald] Reagan invited us, maybe thirty or forty of us for a luncheon. I wondered, "What in the world am I doing here?" So I sat down by the table at ten, and here was the head of the Christian Medical Association, and here was another fellow that worked with the black people down south. We had a good time. Over on this side of me is the president of the Mormon Church, and I just finished reading a book where the...where the Mormons say that Jesus and Satan were brothers, and they don't believe Jesus is God. So we had a great opportunity. I said, "Well now I know why I'm here." But wherever you go, if you're not going in there as a light in the midst of darkness, if you're not going in there as a witness, forget it. And this...you know, hanging around big shots, could really go to your head. And I had to confess this to the Lord in the early days, when we were first started being recognized, and written up in the papers. "Lord, forgive me. I don't want a...". I was reading the life of John W. Peterson [Christian songwriter and choral director] when the [Bill and Gloria] Gaithers came along and some of these other stars, and he was it, he was...and he tells in his book. He said, "I got to ask the Lord to forgive me." He said, "I... was getting jealous of these people." And that's terrible. "Jealousy is as cruel as the grave."
SHUSTER: Jealousy is...?
WYRTZEN: And so we keep provoking one another to love and good works. [Hebrews 10:24]
SHUSTER: Jealousy is what?
WYRTZEN: Is as cruel as the grave, it says in Song of Solomon [8:6], and that's true. [pauses] And you shouldn't see that.
SHUSTER: With the Word of Life, camps, ministries, institutes in other countries, are they self-supporting, or are they...how are they related to the Word of Life in the United States?
WYRTZEN: In some countries they are, in most of them they're not. For instance Germany, our quartet would play brass, and sing, and play strings. They had made, I think, thirty-five albums. And they're very popular, and they brought a lot of income on that supports the work. They have so touched the hearts of Germans in the last twenty-seven years that the Germans practically fully support our work in Africa, without any help from America. Between America and Germany we're supporting the work in Hungary and Czechoslovakia and Russia and all these other countries. I would say the majority of the money is coming out of...out of Europe, out of Germany, West Germany. Then in South America, most of it came out of America. Philippines, most of it came out of America. We don't care where it comes from as long as it keeps coming. [Shuster laughs] But we have a budget of fifty-one thousand five hundred dollars a day, seven days a week, and we have to trust the Lord for that. We've never had a reserve, we've never had enough money to pay for even one week ahead. Sometimes like right now, we're few weeks behind.
SHUSTER: And what effect does that have on the organization?
WYRTZEN: When you get behind?
SHUSTER: Or when you're living that kind of day to day or week to week....
WYRTZEN: Well, hot water makes you clean [laughs], and I think when Peter was out on the sea and was going down, he didn't have time for a long prayer, and he said, "Lord, save me." [Matthew 14:30] And yeah, well, they know, that right here we're having to sweat, so out there they said, "Well, no different here than the home office." So again when it's a family, you help one another.
SHUSTER: Let me ask you, switching gears a little bit, we've talked a little bit about leadership and how Word of Life is organized.... Just your impressions, memories, of some of these people that I've listed here, some of whom you've already mentioned. But basically just asking you, how would you describe this person?
WYRTZEN: Okay, you want to run through them?
SHUSTER: What are some of their common characteristics? Yeah.
WYRTZEN: Donald Grey Barnhouse, great, great, great, Bible teacher. I learned much Bible from him. His Bible classes in New York, and noon days on Monday.
SHUSTER: What made him a great Bible teacher?
WYRTZEN: [pauses] Well, he just studied the Bible, and knew how to teach it. I think sometimes he was very proud. I remember he started talking French to a missionary friend of mine who's been mightily used out in old French Indochina, which is now Indonesia [sic], and all over that area, and she said, "Donald, if you could get what you have in your head in your heart you could change this country." And I think in a measure that was true. He came...he was a very good friend. He came to see me when I had pneumonia one time, and he got discussing baptism, and he believed in infant and I believed in immersion. And he said, "Jack, if you understood the original Hebrew and Greek you'd understand that baptism should be infant baptism." I said, "Don, I read this morning in my quiet time, "God has hidden these things from the wise and prudent, and revealed them unto babes." [Paraphrase of Matthew 11:25?] So we could talk that way. Ralph Davis I already mentioned...
SHUSTER: Well....
WYRTZEN: had Africa Inland Mission. Great guy.
SHUSTER: Well, before we go on...yeah...before we go on to that, let me ask you, what kind of preacher was Donald Barnhouse?
WYRTZEN: He'd get up to read the Scriptures on a Sunday morning at Tenth Presbyterian Church [in Philadelphia]. And he'd give more on reading the Scripture and commenting on that than most preachers would give in ten sermons, and he'd comment on all the verses.
SHUSTER: You mean he would give more depth, he'd give more....
WYRTZEN: Uh-huh.
SHUSTER: He'd find more in each verse.
WYRTZEN: Yeah, then he'd teach verse, by verse, word by word. Marvelous, marvelous teaching.
SHUSTER: What kind of individual was he? What kind of person? What...what comes to mind when you think of him now?
WYRTZEN: Most people thought he was very cold. I knew him, and he was very warm to me [pauses] and I didn't feel like he was that way at all.
SHUSTER: Let's see. Ed Darling of the Youth for Christ organization.
WYRTZEN: Yeah, Ed used to invite me out to conduct rallies, and speak at his rallies in Detroit. We did an nationwide radio broadcast. We did an nationwide television event. Yeah, Ed used to be a good friend of ours. Is he still alive? Do you know?
SHUSTER: I don't know.
WYRTZEN: I don't know. I haven't heard from him in years.
SHUSTER: What kind of...how would you describe him as a person?
WYRTZEN: Wasn't that close to him, you know. I'd go in and out, he'd organize it.
SHUSTER: You've mentioned a little bit about Ralph Davis, who of course was head of AIM [Africa Inland Mission] for many years, and one of those who helped get the National Association of Evangelical started. What comes to mind when you think of him?
WYRTZEN: Ralph was a great organizer. It broke his heart when AIM took him out of the Congo and brought him out back to America, there to be the national director. He didn't want to ever leave the field. Warm, congenial, fatherly, good sense of humor, and all his kids were in the work with him.
SHUSTER: When you say great organizer, how do you mean?
WYRTZEN: Well, you look at the Africa Inland Mission. I think it's a great mission today because of the foundation that he laid. And he had a way of picking leaders, and I worked with him all over Africa, his mission and...out-and-out men.
SHUSTER: So he was good at picking...
WYRTZEN: Key guys.
SHUSTER: ...key guys.
WYRTZEN: Uh-huh
SHUSTER: Peter Deyneka Sr.
WYRTZEN: Dynamo Pete. [pauses] Chewed garlic, ruined the English language [Shuster laughs] spit all over when he spoke. He was one of the most popular speakers we ever had on Word of Life Hour.
SHUSTER: Why do you think that was?
WYRTZEN: He just enjoyed living, enjoyed preaching, he loved people, great. He used to say, "Much prayer, much blessing, [Shuster sneezes] little prayer, little blessing." And young people loved him. For instance, Howard Ferrin was then Providence...President of Providence Bible Institute, attended with Pete a Gypsy Smith [prominent evangelist] meeting at Moody Church in Chicago. Now, Howard Ferrin is a very polished, well educated, President of a Bible Institute. He saw a man on the aisle about halfway down and then put his arm around him, tried to get him to look forward and accept the Lord. And the man said, "Get your arm off me!" He just pushed him away. Now he went back. All of a sudden he sees Pete, Dynamo Pete, going down the aisle, puts his arm around this guy. He knows he's eating garlic, he knows he's going to spit all over him when he spoke, with his Russian accent, born in Russia. First thing you know, this man walks down the aisle, so when a man came out of the inquiry room Howard turned and said to him, "What did Mr. Deyneka say that I didn't say?" He said, "I couldn't understand half of what he was talking about, but he was so enthusiastic about it [Shuster laughs], I knew he had something that was good and you didn't!"
SHUSTER: Did...now when Word of Life was...you mentioned some of the work you had in Poland and in Hungary. Did you work with Slavic Gospel at all, in...?
WYRTZEN: Yeah, they were working more in Russia I think than in Poland. We got into Poland in '62 and we were on our way out of Russia, and we couldn't get a visa to get in.
SHUSTER: To Poland?
WYRTZEN: To Poland. But the train went through Warsaw and I was there for three or four hours. Well, the brethren had an idea I might be on...no where to call or anything and they were all at the station, and they said, "Is there some way you can stay?" I said, "Well, we're here for four hours." Well, they said, "We'll take you over to the head of religious affairs of the Communist party." We went over, and the guy said, "Okay, I'll let you stay one night." Well, I don't know how they got the word out but the auditorium was packed and as many more outside. So the next morning I get called in by the Communist that's head of religious affairs. He said, "You broke the law, you shouldn't have had people outside." Well, I said, "Will you let us stay one more night?" He said, "Well, where would you put the people?" I said, "Well, you own the churches. How about letting a few at the big cathedral downtown?" So, "Okay, I'll let you stay one more night." Again I don't know how they got word out but they packed the place, and day by day for a whole week, all we were concerned is, could we be there the next night. And then we would have to tell the people, "We don't know if we'll be there tomorrow night or not." That's the way Communists treated you. [Portion of interview omitted.] Anyway he let us stay, and that...I mean I preached for two or three hours at their demand, every night. Another hour of inquiry room. They all had beards and they all had to kiss you on both cheeks [Shuster laughs] (which I didn't like). Now it was '62. There are scores and scores of leaders and pastors in Poland (where we now have a camp and we have a great work established) that were saved in those meetings, as teenagers. But we didn't realize it. I mean our big prayer was, "Can we stay tomorrow?" But it's interesting what God was doing, but we didn't realize it at all.
SHUSTER: How many people came to those meetings? Do you have any idea?
WYRTZEN: Gee, I don't know how many in that cathedral.... Let's see, I guess a couple thousand, standing in the back. And then they took the recordings and sent them all over Poland.
SHUSTER: What did you use as your text? What were your...what were your sermons?
WYRTZEN: Well, then I preached three hours a night, I didn't have any sermons that were long. So sermon one was point one, sermon two was.... I preached everything from Genesis to Revelation. It was a delight. They were so hungry, they had been so persecuted. Most of the older pastors had spent a lot of time in jail under Stalin and...boy, you heart ached for them.
SHUSTER: Uh, let's see. Charles Fuller. What were your contacts with him? I know he spoke at Word of Life.
WYRTZEN: Yes, he'd been up here...he was with us at our fifteenth anniversary rally in Madison Square Garden. Very, very warm, Spirit-filled, gentle, and his wife Grace. We lived in their home when we were on the West Coast. Great friend of the Navigators...helped them a lot, helped us a lot...
SHUSTER: How did he help you?
WYRTZEN: ...had them on radio, had us on radio with him.
SHUSTER: How did he help you? By having you on radio, or...?
WYRTZEN: Yeah, and tell about what we were doing. And then...and then the very fact....he took very few outside meetings, and the very fact that he'd come and speak at our Madison Square Garden Rally was something. Dear, dear guy. I think I'd write now he'd turn over in his grave if he knew what was going on in Fuller Seminary.
SHUSTER: How do you mean that?
WYRTZEN: Well, I think Fuller Seminary has become very, very liberal. Soft. They don't have anything that Fuller had. Sad.
SHUSTER: Liberal in what way?
WYRTZEN: Well, I think some of their profs have strong doubts about certain Scriptures being inspired. The Neo-orthodox people there, from all I hear and see, they've gone into quite a bit of the...John Wimbish [?]...taught there for a while. You know, I think of the days when Wilbur Smith and Charlie Woodbridge and some of those great men of God of the early days...um...they don't have those men anymore. It's sad. And I see that product all over the country. Most of them are blah. Most of them.
SHUSTER: Did Charles Fuller in any way serve as a model for you in regard to his radio work?
WYRTZEN: Yeah, I think all pastors across America that believed anything looked up to him. We'd listen to him. If we were in the car, we'd often listen to him on Sunday nights from nine to ten. We'd stop the car and pray for him when he was on the air live. Man with a heart full of compassion. If you want some interesting information of Fuller Seminary, John McArthur went there because he had made some discouraging marks as I would. And went there and told the board and they...and at their request the student body where he thought they were going. He said, "I would start....I would think you ought to start all over again in Genesis 1:1 and keep going, verse by verse through the Bible and get away from all this stuff." But they won't and they didn't.
SHUSTER: Get away from what stuff?
WYRTZEN: From the liberal trends that they have. But he's written quite a paper on that, which I've read. Very good.
SHUSTER: Oscar Gillian [?], of Detroit. Does that...
WYRTZEN: Who?
SHUSTER: Oscar Gillian, of Detroit. Does that name ring a bell?
WYRTZEN: I don't know.
SHUSTER: Youth for Christ worker there. Richard Harvey, St. Louis [Missouri]?
WYRTZEN: Yeah, I met him once in Chicago, I think. He was with Torrey and Billy at the time. All good reports of him, but I don't know. Just met him one day.
SHUSTER: Uh, as for as I say, some of these people I know you wouldn't know very well, or slightly, but their just a list of some of the other people who were involved in youth work in the 40's and 50's and 60's. Will Houghton?
WYRTZEN: Will Houghton I heard a few times in Calvary Baptist when he was pastor in New York. Then he went to Moody, and I really lost contact with him. While he was at Calvary Baptist he had a tremendous ministry. He used to bring in great Bible teachers. I remember one time we had two weeks of meetings in Calvary and, we'll say, Harry Reimer started off the first night with justification. [Shuster sneezes] The next night would be William L. Pettingill with regeneration. The next night it'd be sanctification. The next night it'd be glorification. And these men got up and preached for two hours and packed the place. And I learned a lot of Bible from those men. And Will Houghton was pastor when George Shilling (who really led me to the Lord)...and he had Harry Reimer there for New Years Eve, and that's when George got converted.
SHUSTER: So that makes him your spiritual great-grandfather, or....
WYRTZEN: I guess so.
SHUSTER: As a preacher himself, how was Houghton? How would you describe Houghton?
WYRTZEN: I don't recall. It seems to me that every time I was there he had a guest preacher.
SHUSTER: [laughs] Now Torrey Johnson. We've talked a little about him. How would you characterize him as a leader?
WYRTZEN: I remember when he first had me at Midwest Bible Church, when he was a pastor. He was bringing in Fuller's quartet another week, and he had a great big place out there. And we had great meetings. I had wished that he had stayed with Youth for Christ, but then he.... I don't know exactly what he did do after that. I think he became....oh yes, he became pastor of Boca Raton Bible Church [in Florida] for some time.
SHUSTER: Uh-huh. And led independent...
WYRTZEN: Yeah.
SHUSTER: ...evangelistic campaigns. Why do you say you wish he'd stayed with Youth for Christ?
WYRTZEN: Well, he did such a good job with them in the early days and my own observation is it's gone downhill ever since the day he left. You know they had big rallies back in those days. Soldier's Field...um...the Music Hall [pauses] in Chicago. Those were great days.
SHUSTER: So you think....
WYRTZEN: Maybe it hasn't. I mean, I'm looking at it from....
SHUSTER: But certainly it has changed. I mean, originally there were these rallies and now they're concentrating more on youth clubs and work....
WYRTZEN: I think they had a couple thousand rallies every Saturday night. I remember there was a lot of them.
SHUSTER: I mean, there's definitely been a change from the rallies to the clubs in high school and to....
WYRTZEN: I don't think they should have ever dropped the rallies, because they can be just as effective today as they were then. [pauses] Where does a kid go on Saturday night? A Christian kid with his date? They used to all go to the....
SHUSTER: To the YFC rallies.
WYRTZEN: In New York, or Chicago, or all over. I mean, I can remember preaching....what do they call the one at the Church of the Open Door [large church in Los Angeles]? It was Youth for Christ I think but they had another name for it. Saturday Night Jubilee, I think. Hurbert Mitchell headed it up. I can remember we had four thousand inside and four thousand outside. It was really...a great moving. And they filled the Bible institutes and Christian colleges.
SHUSTER: Uh-huh. Well, do you think, for example, in New York City there could be these kinds of rallies?
WYRTZEN: Yeah, uh-huh. And we rent auditoriums several times a year. The problem with New York City was the cost. Now the tabernacle we used, that was condemned, so that was out. There isn't another big church in New York that we could use, you know, that would seat a couple thousand. Carnegie Hall, which we used, I think it's seven or eight thousand a night. Madison Square Garden, twenty-five thousand a night. Where do you ever get the money to pay for it? So, now this...this December we're going into the Salvation Army Citadel. That seats two thousand. We're going to have three big rallies there, and it'll be full all three of them. And they only make you....you only pay for the light and heat. They're very gracious. In fact, if you couldn't afford it, then you wouldn't have to pay them anything.
SHUSTER: And those are going to be youth rallies?
WYRTZEN: Uh-huh.
SHUSTER: How did you meet Torrey Johnson? When was your first contact with him?
WYRTZEN: I think through Bev Shea. I think also, as Word of Life, we're shifted into an awful lot of things. For instance, the Word of Life Collegians, and in the last few years, they've sung before two and a half million people. And they put on a two-hour drama on Genesis, Daniel, Revelation, two Christmas musicals they put on. And then we have our clubs. Like I mentioned we'll be having these all-night deals from seven on Friday night. And there'll be thousands of kids. And oftentimes a third to half will be unconverted kids. I've preached to more than...in Dallas we had over eight hundred come forward...all teens, all in their grubbies and all. And so you have to reach people where they are. I know in New York, some of these churches were shocked, because sometimes we had kids come in barefooted. Well, so what. Like I know one church out in the Midwest where they used to have a barber shop, probably still do, in the lobby. If your hair wasn't right, or you had a beard and they didn't like, they'd make you shave...you couldn't come in. Then they sang, "Just as I Am" [both laugh]
SHUSTER: "Just as I Am."
WYRTZEN: When I think of some of the characters that have arrived on Word of Life Island, like Tom Maharris, now pastors one of the largest churches in New York. I mean, he had hair down to his waist, had a dirty beard, been living with a gal for three years. But we just...I tell them, staff, "Hey, don't look at a fellow or gal for what they are, look at them for what they can be when the Lord gets in." And that's what you have to do.
SHUSTER: Bob Jones, Jr. I know he's talked...he talked, preached at Word of Life camp.
WYRTZEN: Yeah, and Jr. and the III were both here at the same week.
SHUSTER: What do you remember about them?
WYRTZEN: Tremendous preachers. And one time, the last time they were here, we left the auditorium, we walked up toward the dining room, and there was a group of sharp young people from Nassau in the Bahamas (they were black). And they were so blessed by the message that they went up to Bob, Jr., I believe, and they said, "We would like to come to Bob Jones University." And he said, "We don't take blacks." Boy, that hurt me, terrible. And it hurt them. So I decided, well, we just couldn't have them.
SHUSTER: You mentioned that they were...
WYRTZEN: But great preachers, wow. Yeah, I don't like the way they treat the blacks, and I don't like the fact that they have Masons on their board. Because for some of our board members, that was part of their testimony, how they got out of the Masons.
SHUSTER: You mentioned that they were all tremendous preachers. What made them tremendous preachers? What was it that stuck out about...
WYRTZEN: Orators.
SHUSTER: ...from their preaching?
WYRTZEN: But old Dr. Bob, senior, who I know well, he was a...a great preacher. He preached on sin, hell, fire, damnation, judgement. Wow! I was speaking, I suppose this week, at Bob Jones, of the day the old man died. And...we couldn't have the meeting. Sad. You know, they went the same way McIntire and others who have gone. You know, you can get so separated, you have your fellowship in the telephone book. I know you can have convictions, but it seems to me that many of them almost get to have a hatred toward people they don't get along with. And I don't see any excuse for that.
SHUSTER: You mentioned that you knew Bob Jones, Sr., very well. How would you describe him as a man?
WYRTZEN: Walked back and forth across the platform with a handkerchief in his hands [mimes a vigorous waving of a handkerchief]. One night at town hall he must have had 100-150 forward. I turned to Carlton Booth, the song leader, and said, [laughs] "What are they coming forward for?" He said, "I don't know. I'll separate the sheep from the goats when they get in the inquiry room." And in that there was a mess of people. [H. A.] Ironside said Gypsy Smith would be that way, they'd come forward. One lady said, "Now, what'd you come forward for?" "I wanted to get a closer look at the Gypsy." But he said that among the hundreds that came forward, there are a lot fish in the net. So, what's the difference?
SHUSTER: Of course, he, Bob Jones, Sr....
WYRTZEN: You know, Paul Bubar he said, "Some evangelists say, 'Come forward, everybody. Men's room, this side; lady's room, this side.'" [both laugh]
SHUSTER: Of course Bob Jones, Sr. also started, of course, the college and was probably the country's leading Fundamentalist for many years. What kind of leader was he?
WYRTZEN: Bob Sr.?
SHUSTER: Uh-huh.
WYRTZEN: Well, he...he was a Methodist, but a good strong preacher on sin and revival. I didn't know too much about him in his latter years.
SHUSTER: Uh-huh.
WYRTZEN: And I understand that even now, Bob the III is getting much warmer.
SHUSTER: Uh-huh. Bob Ketcham.
WYRTZEN: Bob Ketcham was a great, great man of God. He wrote a book on Christian living; one of the greatest books on the victorious life that I've ever read. When he graduated from seminary and took a church up in Pennsylvania, he said, "I'm not going to get in any of these fights. I don't have time for it." He was there two weeks, and a Sunday school teacher brought to him, it was then the Northern Baptist Quarterly, and it was all about evolution and it was against the Bible and poo-pooing creation. And he said, "I wrote a letter to the headquarters that," he said, "...that led me into a fight. And from there on," he said, "I was known as a fighting fundamentalist." But he was a very warm, lovable guy. He gave some of the greatest messages up here I've ever heard on the 23rd psalm. Good, good friend of ours. And in his heart he took a very, very good position. I think some people misunderstood him from....they didn't like him because he came here. They thought that was being kind of liberal. And others didn't like him because he was too Fundamental. But I think old Bob took a...very level-headed way and he loved the Lord's people, loved....[break in tape]
SHUSTER: You said he took a very good position. What was that position?
WYRTZEN: Well, he thought exactly as I think. You can take a strong uncompromising position, but do it with compassion. And he...he did that. He took a strong uncompromising position.
SHUSTER: R. G. Letourneau.
WYRTZEN: One of my favorites. Every time I'd see him...I'd hear him, I'd cringe. I'd say, "Lord give me compassion like that." Great soul-winner, put out millions and millions of Gospel tracts. He moved mountains, literally did that.
SHUSTER: How do you mean he moved mountains literally?
WYRTZEN: Well, when he wanted to build that camp down in Georgia, he just cut the top of the mountain off and put his airport up there. I flew with him from that airport. Quite an individualist. He told his son, Richard, when they wanted him to make a small machine and make a lot of money, produce it like Fords [Ford automobiles]. He said, "God didn't call me to make a lot of money. God called me to make the biggest land moving machinery in the world." He said, "I don't care about money." He went bankrupt, I think, four or five times, but ended up on top. One day, he wanted my wife and me to ride on a new land-moving machine and we got up on the top, but he forgot he put his BW in backwards, backed up and crushed it right under [Shuster laughs]. Got on the phone and called them, and he says, "Clean up the rubbish." [Shuster laughs] He said, "I guess I'll have to rebuild that one."
SHUSTER: You said, "You would see him and you'd cringe and say Lord give me compassion like that." Could you give me some examples of his compassion?
WYRTZEN: Yeah, he was a...a great soul winner. I remember one time he was at a banquet he said, "You know, we kids go swimming in the spring, and somebody has to put that toe in the water and back up, and another put their foot in the water and back up." He said, "I was the kind of guy that would run out to the end of that, and dive in, freeze to death [Shuster laughs] but get in, get all wet." And he said, "That's the way we ought to be for God. Just dive in, get all wet, you drown you drown, but do your best to swim out of it." And he had a great compassion for missions. Today some of the largest Christian and Missionary Alliance churches in the world he built down there. [pauses] Great vision.
SHUSTER: What was his vision?
WYRTZEN: One was world evangelism. One time he got Leon Sullivan to borrow five million dollars...
SHUSTER: Leon Sullivan from Philadelphia?
WYRTZEN: ...for him. Yeah, not the mayor, but the Christian businessman Leon Sullivan. Leon H. Sullivan. And he got him to borrow five million and immediately gave away a half a million to missions. And the bank in Wall Street said, "You can't do that." He said, "Okay, I'll give the money back." But he believed in giving, and he was a good example for me the way he gave. And I could remember at the end of the year we were six thousand short. I don't know how he ever knew it, (probably didn't know), but on the 31st of December, he gave me six thousand dollars, and that balanced everything out. Whew!
SHUSTER: What about as a man? What were some of his characteristics?
WYRTZEN: Rough, tough, tumble guy.
SHUSTER: How rough and tumble, I mean how do you mean rough and tumble?
WYRTZEN: Great big guy, a man's man. I wouldn't say he had the greatest command of the English language. But you sure loved to hear him preach. And he'd go, "Ha ha ha ha ha!"
SHUSTER: What kind of preacher was he?
WYRTZEN: Oh, he'd illustrate from his machines and his inventions. [pauses] I don't know what else to say. Great guy.
SHUSTER: David Markam in Los Angeles.
WYRTZEN: I don't know him.
SHUSTER: Okay, Roger Malsbary who started a Youth for Christ work in Indiana.
WYRTZEN: Yeah, I think I only met him once or twice, I don't recall.
SHUSTER: Yeah, we have an interview in the Archives with Paul Johnson [Collection 399], which he talks about he was involved with Malsbary and their work in Indiana, how they came out here I think in '42 or '43 to ask for your permission to use the Youth for Christ name, for what, what they were starting. And you said, "If it does you good, boys, go ahead. Go ahead and use it." Do you recall that?
WYRTZEN: Yeah, Well, lots of people did that. There was not any... we just started by accident. We couldn't call it young men for Christ. And we couldn't call it young men and women for Christ, so we just called it Youth for Christ, and let everybody take it.
SHUSTER: Bill McCarrell.
WYRTZEN: Billy McCarrell. Cicero, Illinois, Cicero Bible Church. His grandson is now pastoring Grace Church, Philadelphia. Another marvelous soulwinner. I think at one time, many of his deacons were former gangsters that got converted. He said he had less trouble with the gangsters of Cicero than he did with the liberal preachers. And another marvelous, marvelous soul winner. He worked a lot with Pacific Garden Mission, Moody Bible Institute, one of their favorites at Founders Week. Sweet, humble. I think he was on the Wheaton Board too wasn't he for some time.
SHUSTER: Yes.
WYRTZEN: Great fellow. He's been here many times.
SHUSTER: Carl McIntire.
WYRTZEN: I think I mentioned to you I was with Carl McIntire the last night he was in the First Church of Collingwood. Next day it was padlocked. I think...he and many other prominent preachers today spent their lives fighting communism. I don't know what they do now, when communism has collapsed. And I used to often wonder about that. I call it 'tanginitis' [?] and....
SHUSTER: 'Tangentitis' ?
WYRTZEN:' Tangentitis'
SHUSTER: Like in a tangent to a line?
WYRTZEN: Yeah, you get on tangent just fighting things. Fighting, everything. All defense, very little proclamation of the gospel. And then I find others are all proclamation, no defense. Paul said he was set for the defense and proclamation [Philippians 1:7]. Started off as a great, great gospel preacher, and then got fighting everybody.
SHUSTER: What made him a great gospel preacher?
WYRTZEN: Well, as I mentioned earlier when he came to two of our rallies, Psalm 22, he'd preached on the Cross with tears coming down his face. [ several words unclear] "Remember the Creator in the days of thy youth." I would say two of the greatest sermons I ever heard, Well, some of the greatest sermons I ever heard, were those two from him. One from Barnhouse on John 4. You think there's certain...I think of Ironside, and the book of Philemon, that would stick out in your mind.
SHUSTER: How would you describe Carl McIntire as a man, as an individual?
WYRTZEN: Great big, tough fighter. Often things he's said were absolutely right, absolutely right. Against the Presbyterian Church USA and their liberalism. And he couldn't have been more right. But he just spent all his time, fighting, fighting, fighting, defend, defend, defend, very little proclamation. You know, you pick up his Christian Beacon [newsletter], everything was defending. And most of what he said was pretty true and right. And he was very upset with us, and he wrote articles against us that we went in to Hungry for compromising by going in there. So....
SHUSTER: Now, why would he feel you're compromising by going in, because you always had to have some kind of agreement from the government to go in?
WYRTZEN: Well, the fact that they let us in, maybe they wouldn't let him in, I think he felt we were compromising by doing that.
SHUSTER: Did you feel there's any jealousy involved?
WYRTZEN: No, no, I don't think so. [pauses] No, he was a man of real convictions. Sometimes convictions I didn't think were right, but he's going to answer to the Lord.
SHUSTER: Now I'd read in one place that you had, had debates with Madelyn Murray O'Hair [well known atheist]?
WYRTZEN: Uh-huh.
SHUSTER: Is that...how did they come about?
WYRTZEN: When we were having the Greater Chicago Youth Crusade....
SHUSTER: When was that?
WYRTZEN: I don't remember. Pacific Garden Mission where they...I went there three or four years. And we packed Moody Church, and some nights we'd have a thousand downstairs. And great, great meetings. Well, whoever was in charge of publicity got me on all of these talk shows, all over Chicago, and there's a fellow called the Tiger of Chicago, a Jewish fellow. I'll think of his name in a moment. Later on he went to Boston. And the committee got me to debate Madelyn Murray O'Hair. First it was to be on a Sunday night for one hour, and I was preaching at Moody Church, and I told them I couldn't be there at eight o'clock, because I think the service was seven to eight or eight thirty. And I came in late. Then it went for two hours, then we had so many phone calls it went for three hours, and then it ended up four hours, and the next day...is it the Chicago Tribune [largest newspaper in Chicago]?
SHUSTER: Uh-huh.
WYRTZEN: They said, "There's eleven thousand and thirty phone calls that came in on the beeper, which set a new record for CBS Chicago, one station. She is a very bitter woman, brilliant. She came out of one of the colleges in Ohio, and she was in it when it went from evangelical to liberal. And she has her master's degree, a brilliant woman. And it was a very, very interesting debate. She wouldn't care what she said, and....
SHUSTER: How do you mean, she didn't care what she said?
WYRTZEN: I mean she wouldn't care whether it's truth or not. I mean she'd just say it. In order to make a point. And she said, for instance that night, "Why..." oh, the moderator, Mr. [John] Callaway, he said, "Why do you always debate the Fundamentalists? Why don't you debate with the liberals?" She said, "I'll debate with anyone, but they never challenge me." So I said to the moderator, who was then vice president, I think of CBS, I said, "Well, of course the liberals wouldn't debate her, a liberal is only one step from being an atheist." I said, "When I work at 140 Nassau street [in New York City], the American Atheist Association was within the same building on another floor, they used to listen to Harry Emerson Fosdick on Sunday. They'd pick his sermons up and they'd publish them and spread them, because he was against the virgin birth, the miracles, the blood atonement, and the resurrection, and that was great for them. So why would a liberal want to debate an atheist if they agree, one with another." And then I think the turning point in the whole debate was when a high school girl from Milwaukee called up and she said, "I want to speak with Mrs. Murray." "Yes, dear." "Mrs. Murray, for the last couple hours, you've been trying to lambast Jack Wyrtzen. I want you to know that I was saved through his program. Before I was saved, I was a bad kid, I was in the sex club, led a riot in the cafeteria, got into a lot of trouble, and now since I met the Lord.... I was about ready to be kicked out of highschool. Since I met the Lord I carry a Bible to school with me, Christ is in my heart, and I'm an honor student. I want to know, what you would have to offer me, if I became an atheist." She said, "Well, you'd be free of all these religious inhibitions." And the girl said, "Well, Mrs. Murray, I feel I am free now, and I'm going to continue with Christ in my heart and a Bible in my hand." The whole board lit up, high school kids were calling from Texas and all over the place. And kids that would never open their mouth but the fact that she was trying to lambast me.... They were my friends, and I met them. Every rally, I go, "Oh, I heard your...Madelyn Murray O'Hair."
SHUSTER: How did she react to those calls?
WYRTZEN: Oh, she'd just brush them off. And now of course she's very upset that her son Bill has been converted, traveling all over the country offering his testimony.
SHUSTER: Brandt Reed, who I know is a friend of yours.
WYRTZEN: Yeah. I was his best man, he was my best man. Very, very close friend. I preached at his funeral two years ago. He started High School Born Againers. Very good. I think when we first started our clubs, he was upset.
SHUSTER: You mean when you first started the Word of Life...
WYRTZEN: Yeah.
SHUSTER: ...Bible Club?
WYRTZEN: Yeah, and I tried to get him to do what we were doing, and he didn't see it. And that was all right. He wanted to train leaders to do all the work. We wanted to train...to have full-time leaders to train the laymen to do the work. Instead of working outside the churches, working inside. Train the leadership in the church and let it go from there.
SHUSTER: Were you...there was sort of a difference in philosophy in the clubs, but were you both reaching the same group kids or were you going after...?
WYRTZEN: No, I don't think so. His main work was in New York City. Ours was all over the country. And in Tokyo, and, again, ours is all over the world. But in both New York and Tokyo, they still do an excellent job. And they get in with kids that we would never touch and so we're reaching kids that he would never touch. So there was no spirit of competition now along that line. And when he died, his widow told me that I think he had thirty thousand debt. And so I really felt badly about that and I wrote Cliff Barrows and I told Cliff about it. And I think the Billy Graham Association gave them fifteen thousand and I put on a banquet and raised the other fifteen and cleared up the whole thing. And the work is going great today.
SHUSTER: How would you describe him as a man? What were his characteristics?
WYRTZEN: Well, he was one of the...first one of the Plymouth Brethren guys I met. And he used to tell people, "You know, I meet Wyrtzen, and Wally and Shelley. And these guys have the fire, but they didn't know much Bible." (Because we'd just been saved.) He said, "I'd been brought up on the Bible, but I don't have any fire." And so we started prayer meetings together and he was a great man of the Word. Really great. I told him we'd meet him again in heaven some day.
SHUSTER: He was a good Bible teacher?
WYRTZEN: Uh-huh. Good evangelist. Good speaker, all right. Spoke up here many a times.
SHUSTER: George Beverly Shea. You've mentioned him several times.
WYRTZEN: Uh-huh.
SHUSTER: How did you first meet?
WYRTZEN: Maybe through Earling Olson [?] who was out on the radio in New York City. He was a broker on Wall Street. I don't remember how I got to know him, but I think he introduced me to Bev.
SHUSTER: Was this after you had become a Christian?
WYRTZEN: Yeah, uh-huh. Oh, yeah. And then, as I mentioned, Bev used to go on missions. I went out and preached at his father's church. And he was our soloist; sang at our wedding. And to this day a very, very close friend. In fact, I think I'm the one that introduced him to Billy Graham. I think I introduced them at O'Hare Airport.
SHUSTER: How did that happen?
WYRTZEN: I think we were all there. Maybe Billy was coming through. I'm not exactly sure. And then Billy used him at Songs in the Night [radio program] and he filled with WMBI. I mean, we were all together at the time as a family, so I'm not exactly sure who said what at the time.
SHUSTER: Now, I know that Tom Skinner came up a couple of times to speak at the Word of Life. Is that true?
WYRTZEN: Yes. My own personal opinion of Tom Skinner is that I thought he would be the answer to reach the blacks. And he started off fiery. Had a great work in Harlem. Maybe I was guilty, along with a lot of others, of pushing him. I gave him six thousand people to speak to, young people, in Chicago. We had him up here. And what I felt he....well, for instance, he stood up here one time (and I faced him on this, I'm not talking behind his back) and he said, "How many of you over twenty-five?" Well, only a few of us leaders there. He said, "Well, nobody over twenty-five would understand what I'm talking about." And I challenged him. I said, "You're turning the young people against the elders. And the Bible says you shouldn't do that." And I think he became quite a racist at times.
SHUSTER: How do you mean that?
WYRTZEN: Did a lot...caused a lot of trouble at Moody Church.
SHUSTER: How do you mean that, quite a racist?
WYRTZEN: He would get the blacks stood up against the whites. [pauses] Yeah, he....and now, of course, he's divorced and remarried and....I don't know. I run into him every once in a while and we're friendly. But I think maybe we didn't...that which the Bible says you shouldn't lay hands on any man suddenly [I Timothy 5:22].
END OF TAPE