This is a complete and accurate transcript of the tape of the oral history interview of Daniel Liberek (CN 385, T3) in the Archives of the Billy Graham Center. Nothing recorded has been omitted, except for any non-English phrases which could not be understood by the transcribers. In a very few cases, words were too unclear to be distinguished, so the word "[unclear]" was inserted. This is a transcription of spoken English, which of course follows a different rhythm and rule than written English.
... Three dots indicate an interruption or break in the train of thought within the sentence on the part of the speaker.
.... Four dots indicate what the transcriber believes to be the end of an incomplete sentence.
() Words in parentheses are asides made by the speaker.
[] Words in brackets are comments by the transcriber.
This transcription was made by Robert Shuster and completed in December 1996.
Collection 385, T3. Interview of Daniel Liberek by Robert Shuster, January 15, 1988.
SHUSTER: This is an interview with Daniel...Liberek [mispronounces name as LEBURKE]....
LIBEREK: Liberek [pronounces it as LIBERIC].
SHUSTER: Liberek by Robert Shuster for the Archives of the Billy Graham Center at Wheaton College. This interview took place on January 15, 1988, at 10:30 AM in the offices of the Billy Graham Center Archives. Dan, why don't we pick up where we left off last week. You had been talking some about the differences in worship between the church Belgium and the church in the United States and some of the different events that were important in the church. Anything else you would like to add to that discussion?
LIBEREK: Not really. I don't think so. The main difference I was underlining was the momentum or frame of mind that in which the people were. If I remember well, I was especially commenting on the defeatism that prevailed in Europe, and especially in Belgium, while there is some optimism in the [United] States.
SHUSTER: After...[pauses] what were...back on your years in Columbia and the...your education there from '78 to '80 and then in your pastoral work and evangelistic work when you returned to Belgium, was there anything that you didn't get that you particularly think would have been helpful to you?
LIBEREK: When I came back after my first term at Columbia (I came back for one graduate semester of graduate work at Columbia) I had a survey. Like every good school, they survey their alumni. And one comment I made was that I didn't think I was prepared enough to understand the world. In a sense, as a Bible college graduate, I had a good handle on the Scriptures, good survey classes and in-depth classes, hermeneutics, homiletics. So as far as the Word [the Bible] is concerned, I was well prepared. But the linking of the Word to the world, understanding the world. I think that is where I was lacking. I tried to work on that area. In a sense, what I am calling for is a class on exegeting the world. What do you draw from the fact that such and such a movie is having such a success. What does it tell us about the world? These books are being read by people. What does this tell us about the world? Why is this show having success and how can we use all this that we draw from these facts to make the gospel more understandable, more likable to the people? How can we tailor the gospel in light of the world?
SHUSTER: So a course...at least one course on interpreting popular culture?
LIBEREK: Probably something like that. I am hoping that one of the courses I am taking will help me. It's cross cultural research. I hope it is going to give me a handle on how to research the world, to understand it. And another one would be relating the two.
SHUSTER: Sure. When you returned in 1980, did you go...what hap...what did you do when you returned to Belgium in 1980?
LIBEREK: The mission had asked me to work in a church. I was fresh out of college, but they wanted me to get some hands-on experience as a pastor. So I returned to the church my father pastors, which is in Huy and I became his assistant. And worked especially with young people, that was the main task I had, preached every other Sunday and taught Bible studies as well, visitation. I went to my father, who taught me several things, and worked at a youth camp, where I was on the board of directors and then had to lead one or two times a year. So I had a well rounded internship in a sense. I was ordained in...I think it was '82 [chuckles] I'm not quite sure any more. It was in February, I know that much. It must have been '82 when I was ordained by the preachers of Belgium. I met my wife at that time and we became engaged to be married at the end of the first term in '83. I really appreciated the time because my father was really supportive of the things I was trying. If I had new ideas, he wouldn't just try to shoot them down, but he would give me a chance to try it, to experiment, within limits of course. He also was supportive of my preaching debuts and debacles as well, if you...flops [chuckles]. The young people, he pretty much handed over that responsibility and I had a measure of autonomy, which was nice. I think he...he is my dad and I am very subjective, of course, but it doesn't happen often, I've realized, that an internship can go well between a father and son in a pastoral role and I give the credit to my father. He is a very good, good pastor and a man who has a lot of...he has the ability to...not to assert himself, but let other people take charge of some roles.
SHUSTER: You mentioned introducing some new ideas. What...what were some of those. Do you recall?
LIBEREK: Well, especially with the young people. In Belgium, as I look over the scene, a lot of groups are very conservative in what they do. They're very restricted in the activities that they do. It's pretty much always the same thing. They might have a ping-pong table or a...a...table soccer or fussball or something like that.
SHUSTER: Fussball is what they call it.
LIBEREK: That would pretty much be the extent of their activities and they'll sing and study the Bible, which doesn't draw very many young people. So I figured that one of the thongs to do was to give our young people some things that they liked. A lot of my young people wanted to play soccer. If you want to play soccer in Belgium, you do it on Sunday morning. that is the time when the teams play. Many years I wanted to be on a team. Finally my parents allowed me to be on a team, but there was one limit. I could not play on a Sunday morning, which is a big restriction, when you can never play in an official game. And I realized that this was hindering many of the young people of the church. And at that time I sent...I sent [unclear] to different churches asking if they would be interested in forming a soccer league. And of course, since I had the idea I became president of it. And we...we had five or six years of championships, soccer championships between churches. It's sort in an between stage right now. We have a new president and we are sort of trying to revise the format and find something that will be less demanding than a championship but still offer the both the fellowship and the sports that we like. Our church still plays every Sunday, we met on Sundays. We play at night. Indoor soccer right now and when it's...the weather is better, we play outdoor soccer. We just keep up. So that is one of the new ideas I started in Belgium. We founded the Evangelical Sports League. Other things we did were ski trips, we rented a swimming pool, we went bowling. Just many things that in the States are taken for granted but in Belgium were not part of the normal activities of a youth group. And this led the youth group to grow very significantly. In 1983, when my wife and I left, there were about thirty...thirtysome people in the youth group. In a church of some seventy-five people, that's quite a good size youth group.
SHUSTER: What do you think it is...as you mentioned these kind of things are commonplace in the church in the United States and apparently aren't in the church in Belgium. Why do you think that is?
LIBEREK: Well, there's a couple factors. First of all, activities cost money. And overall the American church is wealthy. Very generous with its wealth, but also very lavish on itself. And people will not think twice usually about going off for a prayer breakfast that would cost ten dollars a piece, five dollars a piece. Everything costs money. My...my wife goes to a Wednesday morning ladies meeting. Child care costs. So in order to go to the Bible study, she has to pay. She has to pay for the coffee that is served. So activities cost money. The Belgian church is much poorer. Actually the whole society is much poorer. Now, we're wealthy compared to Mali or Senegal. Compared to the States, we're much poorer. So if you want to go on a ski trip, it costs money. Now the thing that I did partly in order to help was to enable the young people to earn money. I said, "Now, you want to go on a ski trip, that's fine. It's in eleven months. I won't ask the church to give you the money. We don't have it anyway. But I'm going to try to provide a way to earn the money. So initiated many activities. I don't know if I said this here or somewhere else. We baked pies on every Saturday. (Was it here I said this? No.) It was probably when I was doing deputation last weekend. We baked pies and the young people would come to our house on Saturday and for the whole afternoon, sometimes the whole day, they would bake pies that would be sold on Sunday morning. So the people instead of going to the bakery shops and having their specialities instead on Sundays would buy from us. And this enabled us to earn money. We had car washes. And any time the people had little jobs to do, we would try to do it for the young...for the...for the group. And we had a big bank account and it just...that would be used just for the ski trip. And this way the young people earned about sixty percent of the ski trip. And on the side, then, the parents were asked to contribute the rest. So we tried to do this and that's one aspect of the difference. I think the second one is the conservatism of some churches. Now there are churches that are very liberal with the young people and especially in the latter years who, in my sense, go way too far. Some of the leaders will take their people dancing, drinking. Thing like that are allowed. Some of the leaders smoke. They're not mortal sins but they're getting close to that. Sad to see this development in some groups, where the boundaries I think have been crossed. There are a lot of fun things to do that I think are perfectly normal. Skiing is a wonderful sport. Playing soccer is a wonderful sport. But I think when you start tying in the joys that the world specifically offers, you run into problems. So at the time (1980) a lot of groups were very conservative and some of the elders...well, I had churches that would not play soccer with us because they had to play on Sunday. I know it is a day of rest, but its also a [unclear] of celebration and fellowship. And to me...I'm a white collar worker, basically. I sit at a desk. It is almost a rest to my brain. I might be bruised, but my brain is resting and I'm having a lot of fun. They would not be allowed to go swimming on Sunday. Some of the activities our youth group planned, outings in the woods, were not allowed by churches because it was on Sunday morn...on Sunday afternoon or Sunday evening. So there was, I would call it, too...too much conservatism in some churches. That would account for the differences.
SHUSTER: Was there opposition in your church too to some of this?
LIBEREK: There was...one of my elders was not excited about some of the activities we did. But he...it wasn't a problem of conscience for him, really, that he interfered with it. He just stayed out of it. He wouldn't be involved, which was fine. I respected his convictions. We...there were a few things that he disliked, but he's quite older than the young people and when we talked about, he recognized that some of it was just the age difference. That's the way my father acted several times. "Well, I don't think I could hack what you are doing." Some of the silliness of young people, sometimes when you grow older you can't take any more. It's just being very silly. Or sometimes the way they want to eat. Just age differences make a big difference. Or the things they talk about. Some of the movies they like, other people don't like. It's hard to relate. So some of the elders say, "Well, we can't understand you, but we think you are doing right. The work is going on, so just keep on and we're praying for you and if you have problems, come back to us." Which is what I did whenever I had a problem, go back to the elders and I would hide behind them in a sense. Well, there is some pressure that young people will give you to do things and sometimes it's hard to refuse them this or that. One thing was if you went skiing or if you went playing somewheres, they'd like to have a drink afterward. Now, I'm a teetotaler, but I don't think everybody has to be. Some of my elders take a glass of wine and I see nothing wrong with that. Scripturally, there is no problem with drinking a [emphasis on A] glass of wine. The problem is when you are doing the pitchers [?]. So some of my people wanted to have a beer or something and it wasn't good for our church activities to have any alcohol attached to them. I know some of my young people are alcoholics. Physically they are alcoholics. If they have one glass, very easily they would have two, three, four and be drunk. They have a physical problem, an illness. And the only way for them to be safe is to abstain totally. And I have recovering alcoholics in the youth group. I have quite a gamut. So I asked the elders to pass an ordinance, a church ordinance, to prevent any alcohol being drunk during youth group activities. So in a sense I am hiding behind them. I can always say, "The elders said. I agree with them, but it is their position as a church that the church will not allow young people to drink when they are with the youth group." They can drink at home, there is no problem. So in a sense, I was hiding behind them when there were very tough decisions. Now, the young people knew my position, but it is much easier to hide behind six people (the six elders, including myself) than to take the whole load.
SHUSTER: As a youth minister, what were some of...some of the aspects that come to your mind with that work?
LIBEREK: Some of the aspects?
SHUSTER: Well, how...how did you minister to young people, if you.... Well, let's just start with that one.
LIBEREK: Well, over the last seven years, there has been a big shift in my ministry in that I...I became married and that changed a lot of things. Before I was married, I taught, of course, and discipled the young people, but I spent a lot of time with them outside of church activities. Spiritual church activities. I would play tennis with some of them, say from 10PM to 12PM Friday night or Saturday night. I was single. I could come home whatever time I wanted. So I had a lot of time with them and it is amazing the number of spiritual things that you can do playing tennis. Things come up. You're talking, you're taking a shower afterwards, and sometimes the time would just get loose and they would share their problems. And I was able to get inside of them, understand them and help, because of these extra spiritual activities. And I taught some of them in...in the public school. I was partly supported with the Evangelical Mission and partly I earned my living in public schools. I had them in school as well. So I saw them in many different ways. After we became married, I could not quite play tennis from 10 to 12PM (or 1AM sometimes). It was a big change. So, suddenly my focus changed. I became more of a model in the way I lived with my wife. I still play tennis once in a while, we still play soccer every Sunday night, but there's a difference. Suddenly I am a married man. Suddenly now I have two (and a child to be born very soon). I've grown very quickly in their eyes, especially. When I was single, they would treat me more as an equal. An equal. Of course, their pastor, but still an equal. When we went back last time and when I was with them this time I realized that to some of them I had become an adult. I was no longer a peer. I was an adult, an adult that was in a different world than theirs. It been partly my changing (and I realize I have changed) and it's partly a change in my situation. I can still be very silly with them, I can still wrestle with them. I can do many of the things I did, but they will not understand the same way. So the ministry has had two different emphases. They're different and irrevocable. I cannot go back to being a single man. I cannot go back to having the time I had before. But what I have now is the ability to portray to them what the goal of my ministry has been all along. I am not looking for my young people to be single Christian giants. I am looking for them to be good family men, good family women, who will establish solid Christian families in the church and will raise kids according to the Scripture. That's my goal for the young people of the group. So in a sense, I am looking for my group to decline. I want them to be married and to establish solid families in the church. Now I have the instrument to portray to them what I would like them to be. Some of their families have been wrecks. Some of their families have been disrupted by alcoholism. I can think of one family has been an alcoholic for years. Now, he doesn't drink anymore, but his brain has suffered much damage. His whole metabolism is out of stage. He can't sleep at night. He sleeps in the daytime. Sometimes he can't work. Sometimes he's on medication. The whole family is shattered. Now those young people need to see what a Christian family can be. Our family is not perfect. I have diff...differences with my wife. We work them out. And they can see we have problems sometimes. They can see we work them out. They can see especially that we love each other. And if there is one thing I want to portray, it is the love between my wife and I and it works out when we do have differences or problems.
SHUSTER: What are some of your main concerns of the young people in your group?
LIBEREK: Of course, there is the concern of founding...finding a mate and founding a family. That's in any society, I reckon. Moreso in our western society, where love, mushy love, has become such an important factor. We...we pretty much abstain in Belgium from the dating system like you have in the States. It is prevalent outside the church, but inside the church we are a subculture, in a sense, where people don't date. I went for my first date with my wife when we had been engaged for six months. I took her out for her birthday. We went to a Japanese restaurant. I remember very well. But that was my first official date with her. Most of our activities are centered on the group. I...I personally think it is much more healthy. You can see someone acting in a group. Like, if I am acting just with my wife or the one I'd like to become my wife, I can put on a show, I can act, I can be kind, I can be all you'd want. If you can see me acting in a group, that will be much more who I am. You'll see me relate to other girls, you'll see me relate to other members of my family, there in the group, my sister. You can see me acting and being my real self much more. So I think that's much more healthy. I know in the States, you have to use the dating system, since it's...it's THE [?] method, but I like my position better [chuckles]. Much less temptation as well. So that's one of the main concerns. The other concern for Christians is, "How do I live my Christian life in a society that does not respect what I stand for?" There is no support group in the high schools. Many, many times, there will be only one in your whole class. I was the only one in the whole high school of seven hundred kids for a short time. It is tough.
SHUSTER: You mean the only Christian?
LIBEREK: The only Christian. The only Protestant. I remember times when the kids would send me literature during class periods. If ever they received literature from a cult in their mail box, they would send it to me. I build a wonderful file because of them on al the cults in the area. I was Mr. Cult Man. Whenever there was talk about Protestants, the eyes would all shift toward me. And, of course, I usually reacted, because the teachers didn't know what they were talking about. I remember one time the Protestant teacher was absent, so I went with my buddies to Catholic...Catholic session and the priest talked about Protestants, of course, and I didn't say a word until after he was finished and then I spoke up and said a few things. He was a good man, that fellow. He lived what he was talking about. Many times they don't know what they are talking about. There is a lot of misinformation about the Protestant church in Belgium. My father remembers going to the haircutter and the haircutter, knowing that he was a Protestant, asked him, believe it or not, "Do you Protestants believe in heaven?" And, amazingly, "Do you believe in God?" Unbelievable, almost. But that was an anecdote that actually happened. So they don't know who we are. They know we love the Bible and to them, many of them, up to this day, after Vatican II, still the Bible is a Protestant book, somehow. It's not a Catholic book, it is a Protestant book. And they will not read it.
SHUSTER: You say your father went to the...? I didn't quite catch it.
LIBEREK: Hair cutter. Barber might be a better word. You always talk when you are sitting down over there.
SHUSTER: You...how do you think this...you mentioned [unclear] the culture doesn't understand what it means for them to be Evangelical Protestants. How do you think this effects the young people?
LIBEREK: It effects them very deeply. When, you turn thirteen, fourteen, you come into a time when you want to be appreciated by your peers. And suddenly the thing that should be the most important to you becomes the thing that nobody understands, nobody appreciates . It is very hard to be the oddball about the thing that you feel most deeply about. Many of them will be secret Christians in their high school. I was for several years. There were times when I would speak out and there were times when I would just try to be like everybody else. Just hush up, be quiet, let the bullets fly over. Don't stick your head out. So many of them are having this identity crisis. Some will make it, some will not. And that's why I feel the youth group is very important. A group of peers that...and on Saturday we meet for three hours and a half. They're not short youth meetings. They are long youth meetings. Sometimes we'll spend a whole Saturday together. I think it is important, because we are giving them a basis for their identity. We are giving them a place where they are accepted for the main thing, for being Christians, for being Evangelicals. So we act as a support. My wife and I have them in our home, we organize things for them. We try to build the identity. That is important. And maybe they'll stand up during the week in the high school.
SHUSTER: You mentioned too that you'd been...had the responsibility of youth camps. What do you think is the most important consideration in running a youth camp?
LIBEREK: Depends...depends upon the age, of course. I was involved in directing camps for sixteen and up, sixteen to twenty-five. In the latter years, I have directed camps from twelve to fifteen. Much different philosophy in running the camp. The sixteen through twenty-five are pretty much (do you say blasé in English?) They are pretty much very tired of everything. And there is no way a Christian can compete with what the world has to offer. I have had directors who have tried to compete, give them what them what they want. And so you have to come up with activities that will outdo what the world can do. No way. We have a small budget, our camps are cheap because our families are usually...they don't have much money and if you are going to send three or four kids to camp, it has to be cheap. There is no way you can compete with the world on their standards. And I think we have to keep central in our camp the spiritual dimension. I am all for good activities and you can do some cheaply. But the camp has to be centered around Christ. We can bring in great movies. They can have movies everyday on their TV. You can bring good groups. They can have better groups. What has to be at the center is Christ. Definitely. I remember one of the first camps we did we organized one day where we had four meetings. And I was bawled out by the other...by some of the other directors.
SHUSTER: Meetings. You mean...?
LIBEREK: For having four meetings.
SHUSTER: Four service meetings?
LIBEREK: Yeah. It was too much. We had four services. We started the day with thirty-minutes devotional time that is done by rooms. Our room seats eight [pauses] beds, including one counselor. So the first thirty minutes, you spend them together, studying the Word, praying. We had that first meeting. Then we had one service in the morning, then one service at night. And after that I organized sort of a worship time - songs, prayertime, scripture readings, testimonies. It was the first time that it had been done, those four meetings for the day. And many people said, "They will never go for it. What they want is a night game. They want to do something exciting." But to this day, some people come back and say, "That was an important day for me." We can't compete on the show side with the world. We have something the world doesn't have. So sixteen to twenty-five, that's a very important time. Blasé. So many of them will not try activities we prepared. It's below them. All they want to do is sit around, listen to music and talk. It's very hard to do camps that will excite them. So that's why I think the spiritual aspect has to be very important. Now of course that's assuming that you have a majority of people that are Christian. If you have a majority of people that are not Christians, then it is a whole different ball game. We haven't gotten too much into that, because we don't have many non-Christians coming to the camp. So they're use basically [unclear]. We're trying to draw non-Christians anew. And it could be working in two or three years to come. But that will be for next time I come back [to Wheaton] in twenty-five years [chuckles]. Twelve to fifteen, that is a very...I like that age. they are go-getters. They'll do any. Just ask them to do it and they'll volunteer for it. What you have to keep in mind is that they're people who need to have activities prepared for them. They are not self-starters. You have to say, "Well, guys, let's go and have a soccer game." And then they will follow you. But you can't just put the ball out there and say, "Go!" and have a soccer game. They follow people. So a lot of it will depend upon your choice of counselors. And that is probably what I should have said to start with. Choose counselors well. They will break or make a camp.
SHUSTER: What are the most important characteristics of counselors?
LIBEREK: [pauses] I choose my counselors basically along two main aspects. He has to be spiritually...he doesn't have to be a giant spiritually, but he has to be authentic. At the time he is at the camp, he has to be in the right relationship with God and he has to be devoted to God. The knowledge is not as important as the heart attitude, to me. He can be a new Christian. Not a week or two. But he can be several months. He can be only several months Christian. And if he is devoted to Christ, that will impact the young people. And the other characteristic I'd like (it doesn't have to be for all the counselors, but for some of them) the ability to lead games, to motivate the young people, that ability is important. So I try to balance good athletes, people who can lead in games. I will have people who can do crafts. The main thing is, are they spiritual people?
SHUSTER: When you are talking to a non-Christian youth, how would you start with the presentation of the Gospel? What's the best avenue?
LIBEREK: Interesting question. Most of the talks we have with young people, we...we don't walk up to them and try to talk about Christ (in the crusades we do some of that). But we talk about things that interest them. When...when I'm driving with young people, I might take a hitchhiker, which is very [unclear] for evangelism. I've got an advantage. I'm doing him a favor, so he's got to listen to me. I...I do that once in a while. I pick some up. I talk about what interests them. Where their life is going, where they would like to be ten years from now. And I will try to move slow to showing them that they don't have what they need to make their life what they would like it to be. They're missing a key ingredient. I'll try to take that approach, generally. It's a low-key approach. I don't move straight into using the four spiritual laws [an evangelism technique developed by Campus Crusade for Christ]. That's going to bomb on the young, backfire, because they are not that interested in spiritual things. The spiritual thing they see is their church. It is dead, it's rotting, it's further than death, it's gone. So they're not interested in spiritual things right off. But if they can be shown that spiritual things is what...is what matters.... I remember one class I had where several non-Christians came over. They gave up their...the other choices they had to come to our class. And so they were talking about all the good dates they had, and this girl they were going to sleep with and on and on. So I figured I had a chance and I quietly moved in and I said, "Well, what would you like the woman you are going to marry to be like. And they started sharing. "Oh I would like her to be this. To be good looking of course. Intelligent. And a virgin." That's where I make my strong move. "Then you guys are crazy. Because you are making [?] girls that you would not want to be your wife. And you are making yourselves what you wouldn't want your mate to be. And you're wrecking your future." And they start thinking. And then I had chance to show them more of what I stood for and what Christ stood for and that's about the time that the time that you have control [?]. It's more of a process. It's very hard in one time to speak to a young person, to get through to them. I try to draw them to young peoples' groups and then we develop a relationship over several weeks. And then different things will impact them - the young people, the way they talk, the way they act, the way I direct them. And the Lord will reveal [?] Himself.
SHUSTER: Anything else you would like to say about youth work?
LIBEREK: It's an exciting work, very rewarding, very disappointing. The young people, they can be the best or they can be the worst. They're up one day, down the next, like a seesaw. But I find it very rewarding, because there is potential for growth, a lot of growth. And there is many years of impact. If you impact a person who is fifty, you are impacting twenty years. If you're impacting a person who is fifteen, you are impacting sixty years. So you have a great potential. You have a potential of generations to come as well. Of children that have not been born yet, that haven't been raised. Grandchildren. You are impacting all of that. It's great potential. I've found that if you invest in them, if you believe in them, they will...they will....they will come...they will do it. But you have to the right things. My wife and I did many activities, but we did emphasize spiritual aspects. We had one...we had the big evening on Saturday for everybody and we had a special disciples group on Friday night. There were three conditions to come. You had to be ready to memorize two verses a week. We memorized all of the first chapter of Second Timothy [a book in the Bible] and almost the whole chapter of the second chapter of Second Timothy together. You had to be willing to lead the Bible study in turns. And you had to commit to pray for each other. They were three difficult commitments in the long run. [unclear] to study two verses a week. But then they add up and add up and add up, it quickly becomes a burden. And I made a commitment to them that if...if they would pray and read daily for about six months, I would take them out to Pizza Hut [a fast food restaurant]. Which is an investment for me, I considered. Among those guys that came regularly, week after week, became my key leaders in the youth group, became the guys I could say, "Well, I'm not going to be here tomorrow. You take charge." And today, I know that some of them are the foundation, pillars of the youth group. Oh, they mess up, of course. I remember one time I rented a movie and I was hoping wee could have a discussion afterwards. It was a great movie. I think I picked a movie that was slightly too old for them. It was a great movie. But it backfired on me, cause some of my young people, my key young people, were laughing and making noise during the whole time of the showing. But the next day, they came back and apologized. And that's the difference. Now those are my key guys. They are willing to come back and ask forgiveness. They are not perfect. But I've invested a lot of time into them and [unclear] God willing.
SHUSTER: How did you meet your wife?
LIBEREK: She was a member of my youth group.
SHUSTER: Oh.
LIBEREK: She was the daughter of the oldest elder of our church. And she used.... She's a go-getter. She played soccer with us, she came to our practices and she always tried to take the ball away from me. [Shuster laughs] Finally I got wise and married her, to keep her on my side. [chuckles]
SHUSTER: Did you...so you grew up together in the church?
LIBEREK: She was actually my sister's best friend. There's six years difference between my sister and I. So when I left for college, she was a little girl and I wasn't interested at all. She was, what.... Well, I don't know the ages like that. But she was a little girl and there was no thought of ever having a relationship with her. When I came, I had broken an engagement and I had asked the Lord for five years. I had wanted to be single. I remember being on crusades with our team ("crusade" is a time when missionaries go together, in deputation) and our team leader always asked people to pray that I would find a wife, That made me very upset. I wanted to be single for five years. I wanted to devote my full time, my full energy, all the mon...money I had to the Lord. I just wanted to have a ball for Christ, as a single young man. And I remember asking the Lord for five years celibacy. I made it for four. Not too bad. [chuckles] Missed one year. When I came back, I was happy as a single man. As I said, I could spend my time any way I wanted. Nobody had any...any things to say about the way I spent my money. I wanted to give it here or there, that was my business. Then I noticed there was a young lady there who went to my home once and a while to see my sister. And she was interesting. She was a spiritual girl. She was one of those in the church who tried to do what I preached about. If I said, "You need to go get the kids in your class," she did. And she'd come back and say, "Now Dan, how do I do this? They said this. What can I answer?" She was one of those who was authentic and that impressed me. And the rest is history.
SHUSTER: Is there a lot of pressure to marry young among Evangelical kids?
LIBEREK: Well, many people said my wife was too young when we married. Some of her friends...she was eighteen [counts to himself] she was nineteen when we married. So she was rather young for our society. I was twenty-four. I...I was at a good age to marry. It was about time. It all depends what social status you have. If you are upper middle class or...or upper class, then you'd probably wait until you have gone through university. But it's highly probable that you'd be living with someone during that time. Living in has become almost common practice. If you're lower class, you'll probably look for marriage much younger. You finish high school, you've got...you can do work. You're a blue collar worker, you're a plumber, your's a electrician, a tool machinist. You go straight...you find a...you try to find a job and get married and have a family. So lower classes younger, older...upper classes later.
SHUSTER: I want to go on now to talk about some of the general factors in the church in Belgium.
LIBEREK: Well, after this time as a youth worker, we went on a furlough and came back and then I [unclear] became the senior pastor of the church, with my father as my assistant. My father is a very busy man. He is president of the Free Churches of Belgium, the Evangelical Alliance of Belgium. He's chairman of our field, for United World Mission. And he's also president of the Evangelical European Alliance. So he's gone quite a bit. And it was convenient for him to step down from the pastorship. So one of those few situations where the father is the assistant to the son. And this gave me a better taste...the mission wanted me to have responsibility in the church and prepare for a church planting venture that we'll be heading when we go back. We will be leaving the church in Huy. (Well, we have left, actually.) When we go back, we'll be going to a new city where there is no church at all. My wife and I have been assigned planting a church in the northwest [?]
SHUSTER: Why don't we talk a little bit about being the senior pastor. What was a typical week like? How did you spend your time during an average week?
LIBEREK: Well, I was on half support with the mission, which meant that I still taught high school half time. So my week, my daytime, was pretty much working around the classes I had. I did visitation. That is one big difference, I think between the European church and the American church. In the Belgium church at least, if I don't visit all my members each once a year, I am in for trouble. My older folks, I visit them every three months, basically. And my father does also. So we do a lot of visitation. I've been in a church in Wheaton for six months now and nobody has come to our house yet. And it is not expected. Last time we were in the states, we attended a church for several months and I asked the pastor to come over and he was very surprised. It is not a part of the American church. A pastor stands up on Sunday and preaches. If you want to see him, come to his office. It is way different in Belgium. There are advantages and disadvantages. It gives you a lot more pressure, timewise, but it also gives you an opportunity to see your people where they live. You understand them better when you know their environment, when you see them relating to each other in their house. All of that is food for preaching. You understand the needs and you can preach more adequately. Advantages on both sides. So my week was...I had a lot of teaching, a lot of visitation. I preached quite a bit - Sunday morning and then Tuesday night, youth meeting on Saturday with all the preparation. Then we had the disciples meeting on Friday, followed by choir. It was quite a bit. Wednesday I usually had committee meetings at the camp. So my...my weeks were full. Usually people from the headquarters always said, "You work too much." [chuckles] We have weeks when I keep track of the amount of time I put in. It's seventy to eighty hours a week work. Plus my family, of course. But we enjoy it. we love the work we do and we keep very busy at it. There's administration, there's writing to supporters. All of that has to be figured in somewhere. Once and a while we take time for the family. Once in a while we take time for reading and for intellectual development. All of that goes together. Now, if there is a summer crusade, then the work has to be reorganized as well. We have to prepare the summer crusade. When it is a summer crusade, everything falls and you're full time in the town where you're having the crusade. Once in a while I...I'm gone, preaching here or there. Evangelism or visitation, different things. I'm also working for the committee that organizes pastors' retreats in Belgium. My father initiated that about five or six years ago, something like that. Now every year we have a pastors' retreat or we had a special speaker. The committee that organizes it sometimes meets, so I have to find a place that we can hold it, going to different hotels and restaurants, finding a speaker, getting a speaker, all of that. Different things. Our week is never the same, basically. Always exciting and interesting, always busy. But we know we are where God wants us to be. And that makes our work interesting. If there was doubt God wanted us in Belgium, wanted us here now even in Wheaton...I am convinced a thousand percent that God wanted my wife and I here in Wheaton during this time. He has made it so evident to us through a series of miracles that we had to be here. Well, it is the same in Belgium. We know we had to be in Huy. Now we [unclear] that God wants us in St. Nicholas [Church] in Liege, a bigger town, in the years to come. That's makes...what makes all the difference.
SHUSTER: When do you find time to prepare your sermons?
LIBEREK: It's interesting. I...I usually...I budgeted my time and for several months, I had reserved Wednesday morning for my preparation. And then sometimes on Tuesday I had to prepare my Bible study. The youth meeting was prepared on Friday. I had a schedule with blocks of time that were saved for some [?] preparation for preaching. Sometimes somebody came to our door who needed help, time was taken and usually I would stay up, preparing my sermon in the night. I never went up totally unprepared. There were times when I went up less prepared than I should have been or would like to have been and the Lord intervened. I believe in preparing and when it is impossible and the Lord has other priorities, He supplies the message, as He has a few times. But I do like to prepare and I make time for it.
SHUSTER: How...how does your work as senior pastor differ from your work as youth leader?
LIBEREK: My congregation increased. The young people were still an important part of my congregation, but suddenly it went from the one year olds to the...eighty-five, I think, is our senior member. So my congregation increased, my spectrum of needs increased. The gamut of things I was to preach about increased. The people I was to visit increased. I suddenly was the pastor of the elders. I was chairman of the board of elders. I directed the meeting. I...I counseled them. I assigned them tasks. I assigned tasks to my father as well, different things. It changes quite a bit. The missions committee was my responsibility also. The ladies meetings were my responsibility. Everything came under my umbrella of authority. I delegated a lot, but I was responsible for it. Nothing in the church would go by that I was not concerned about. My prayer load increased. I realized that there were more things that I was incapable of doing, but were...for which I was responsible. Nothing in the church could go by that I was not concerned with. My prayer load increased as there more things that I was incapable of doing but were...for which I was responsible. It was a very stretching time. If the church didn't grow the way I wanted it to grow, I felt responsible for it. Growth, lack of growth. Iff the budget wasn't met, I felt much more responsible for it. I couldn't pass the buck to someone. Before, if something did not work out, I said, "See my dad." That was easy. Now when somebody had a problem, my dad would say, "See Daniel. And suddenly I was the one being given the buck being passed. It is much different, a much different role. Exciting too. But much different. I learned quite a bit.
SHUSTER: Well, if we could go on and talk a little bit about the church in general in Belgium.
LIBEREK: The church in general in Belgium. The church...I've said this before. Very small. We number (now, I am talking about the Evangelical church and not just our denomination) we number about point six of the population [six tenths of one percent]. That's tiny, tiny, tiny. The church is composed...the Protestant church is composed of the state Protestant church. Quite modernist, liberal. It leans with the times. Their school in Brussels is...is liberal. They don't believe in many of the miracles, they interpret [?] the Scriptures. I don't call them Evangelical. They are Evangelical denominationally, but [unclear] and to keep the work going. Excuse me. But overall, it's...it's sadly liberal. Apart from those, then, not supported by the state, then, not given any money by the state, not given a chance to use the regular television are the Evangelicals, the Free Evangelicals. The Association of Evangelical Churches, which is an association. It is not a denomination, per se, because it does not have denominational control. Every church is autonomous. That is the Association with which I work. We comprise.... Accumulative membership is about sixteen hundred members. That is...people laugh at us. They say, "Sixteen hundred people!" I went to Willow Creek [an extremely large church in the vicinity of Chicago, Illinois] and I realized that in that auditorium, there were more people than our denomination comprised in Belgium. Tears came to my eyes when I realized that this one church was bigger than our whole denomination. When I go to my church here in Wheaton, the Evangelical Free Church, there is seven to eight hundred people on Sunday morning. I'm realizing that twice that church is our whole demon...our denomination in Belgium. I pastor what is by the books the fourth largest church of our denomination in Belgium. We have a hundred and some members. In Antwerp [?] we have our largest church, but the number of members is not that exciting. Our biggest church is two hundred and fifteen members, on the books. That's not a big church. But for Belgium it is. Most of our churches average about thirty-five people. Very small. They can't support their own pastor, can't pay him. He has to have another job. There's just a few churches who pay their own pastor. But there's also Baptist churches in Belgium. I can't say the work is going well. The president of their association is getting older and as he is getting older, it is a problem to...to keep the vision going. In the few years, they have had a few more missionaries coming from the Baptist churches in the [United] States. Don't ask me which Baptists, I couldn't tell you. It's the Baptist church, Evangelical Baptists. And we're hoping that there might be an overhaul [?] of the work of the Baptists. The Mennonites are in Belgium. They are very small. [unclear] In the last year they sent missionaries. I don't expect too much of an impact, because the missionaries go and wear the black dress, the hat. I don't think that's going to impact Belgium. I don't think that's the kind of thing that will appeal to the people here. We also have now the Assemblies of God and different charismatic groups. We have a very good relationship with the moderate charismatics. The Pentecostals are the moderates, [unclear] the Assemblies of God. Some of them are members of the Evangelical Alliance and we have a good working relationship with them. Some of the extreme charismatic groups we don't have a relationship with, pretty much because they do not want to and I would say that those groups are pretty much on the decline in Belgium. But they had a lot of appeal among illiterate people, foreigners like Italians, excitable people. I would say that is on the decline, because a lot of those are learning to read and they can discover the Bible for themselves and they discover that some of the things what were aren't true. Now, some of the more cultured charismatic groups in Belgium are growing. I don't think they are growing at an exciting rate either. Sad, but there is hardly any growth in Belgium. I just finished a study of the Free Church and I discovered we had a decade-long growth rate of seven to six [sounds very much like "seventy-six"] percent, which is good. But our denominational as a whole had a decade long growth rate of two percent. Two percent. Bad. Very bad. That is the sad fact about Belgium. As a whole, the Evangelical population is not growing or not growing by much.
SHUSTER: Is it growing at the rate of the general population of Belgium?
LIBEREK: The population of Belgium is pretty much stable. We have...if we have any growth, it is from immigrants. From immigration and from the first generation immigrants, who still are having more babies than the general population. There is hardly any...any growth in Belgium as far as population. We have stabilized...stabilized and we are aging as a population, pretty much like all the advanced...technologically advanced countries in the world. We're aging . The church is not making the inroads. We've had a few big efforts. We've had the Billy Graham in 1975, I believe. [The Belgium Crusade, held in Brussels in 1975 in conjunction with Eurofest, a major endaevour of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, held primarily for young people in Brussels July 24 through August 2, 1975.] Hardly any impact in Belgium. Billy Graham is unknown in Belgium. Well, I can't say he's unknown, but he's not known for...the way he is in other countries. His name does not have an appeal. We had that big stadium, the Heysel stadium. That's where they had the big tragedy a few years...a few years back.
SHUSTER: The soccer game. [Several fans had been killed at riot after a soccer game a short time before this interview was taped.]
LIBEREK: A soccer game, yes. I know the Heysel stadium. That stadium seats sixty thousand people and on a peak night we had twenty thousand people. That stadium looked empty. [unclear] people.
SHUSTER: Do you think that was because Graham was unknown or was there some other reason?
LIBEREK: Several reasons. I know Bill Thomas has written a thesis about it and he claims it was because we didn't appeal to the Catholic Church for help. [The thesis, by William Thomas, submitted for his doctorial degree from the Vrije Universiteit of Amsterdam, and published in 1977 by Rodopi Press, is entitled, An assessment of mass meetings as a method of evangelism: case study of Eurofest '75 and the Billy Graham Crusade in Brussels.] I permit myself to disagree strongly with that. There were several things. I think we didn't rent the right hall. We shouldn't have rented a hall for sixty thousand people. We cannot fill it. Just last year in France they rented a stadium and they filled it almost every night. The other stadium was much, much smaller. It was an indoor, enclosed stadium. Much better. And it looked like Billy Graham was having success, which he was, on a French-speaking scale. That has to be taken into account. Had we been wiser, we would have rented a hall of fifteen thousand places...seats, we would have filled it and the papers would have said, "Now they're succeeding." It is all a matter of perspective. Second, there were mistakes in the organization. Some of it was delegated to Belgian people who were not capable of handling those specific tasks. The BG organization has people who are experts in certain areas and they tried to delegate those areas of expertise. It was wrong. They tried to do it the national way and some of it was poorly done. That's a matter of organization. We als...furthermore, it has to be remembered that the Billy Graham crusade was an afterthought. It wasn't planned from the start. What was planned was Eurofest, for young people, and they tried to tack on this crusade. It wasn't planned from the start, it wasn't wanted by all the churches. So there were different problems. On a big scale, it's hard to touch Belgium. And you can try to go through the Roman Catholic Church, but then you are going to have a lot of problems afterwards. Like, who are you going to refer the...the decision makers [the people who come forward to commit or rededicate their lives to Christ at the end of the crusade service] to. Who are going to be the counselors? What churches are they going to be integrated into? What can you say from the platform? And a whole gamut of different problems. And I am not sure I want to tackle those problems. [Next sentence unclear. Perhaps it is, "I am not sure I would have the tolerance, the ecumenicism."]
SHUSTER: You mentioned that Belgium was hard to touch on a large scale. Is that just because of the Catholic Church or are there other factors?
LIBEREK: The Catholic Church is a big factor. They hold some of the media and they will not let us...not let us get into it. They.... The second factor is the socialism that is prevalent in Belgium today. They hold the rest of the media, we hold none. The state Protestant church has a one half hour weekly TV program, I believe. And maybe one hour or two at a time on the Protestant owned...state owned radio station. It's little. When Billy Graham was in France (he did a splendid job in France, we ourselves took two...two bus loads of people over to France and had several conversions from it) the state TV didn't show anything. Even the thirty minutes of time that were owned by the Protestants were not used to tell about this wonderful event in France. What better chance for evangelism did they have than to go over there, tape, and make a thirty minute program with whatever he said, share the gospel? What did they do? Well, they probably talked about an exhibition of art by this Protestant painter. Or they could have done this course of history on Saint [unclear] Day. Or.... Sad, they're not using this time that they have for evangelism. No impact.
SHUSTER: Why do you think that is?
LIBEREK: Evangelism is not needed. They are liberals, pretty much Unitarian...Universalists (sorry) and everybody going to be saved anyway. The Catholic Church is as good as the Protestant church and there's no need to preach the gospel anymore. It comes from their theological [?] positions and they hold the reins of power in those areas and we can't touch it. We can't get TV time and we can't get radio time. Now, we're dialoging with them to try and have them to get us part of their time, because we are saying now, "Remember fellows, we're Protestants and we are...there are more of us than of you now." SO we're trying to get some time. But they've got the keys. We don't.
SHUSTER: And the keys are...?
LIBEREK: In the hands of the state Protestant church. The keys are.... I think if we could get media exposure in Belgium.... Do I have enough time for this?
SHUSTER: I think so, yes.
LIBEREK: If we...if we could get media exposure in Belgium, I think we could make a breakthrough. Of you look at Spain, the way it has happened, some of the media was opened to the Protestants. And you have good solid growth in Spain. In France, what happened during the Billy Graham crusade? They had media exposure. A couple phone calls, they got the hall they wanted, they got time on TV. There was one man high up in the French government for these relations. He was a Christian. A couple of phone calls and [some words unclear] Billy Graham was interviewed on several TV programs by some of the big shots, even by one of the top newscasters, [name unclear]. He was on TV. Media. The hall was full. That's what we can't get in Belgium.
SHUSTER: So the media's state owned?
LIBEREK: The media is not interested. We are not news. When we had Amsterdam '86 , ICIE [the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association sponsored events, the International Conference of Itinerant Evangelists, held in 1983 and 1985], no media related the fact that ten thousand evangelists came together in Amsterdam. Nobody. The fact that it was the first time so many countries of the world were represented was not portrayed in the media. I was interviewed a little later on one of the local radio stations in Huy, because we had...we relate to the media there. I don't know if I have time to relate that.
SHUSTER: I am going to stop here and get the next tape.
END OF TAPE